LL-L "History" 2004.11.21 (05) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 21.NOV.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.20 (01) [E]

Ron schreev:
>
> Henry (above):
>
>> Ron, are you sure that list is complete? I know of many more cities that
>> claim to be, and have proven to be, Hanseatic cities.
>
> No, Henry.  I pieced it together from several sources on the web, and I
> would really love to make it as complete as possible and post it somewhere
> (perhaps even as a part of our anniversary project), because it would be a
> great resource service for folks doing historical, cultural and linguistic
> research.  Outside the Netherlands, much is made of the Hanseatic cities
> in
> the east, little of those in the Netherlands.  Does anyone feel like
> researching this a bit more in order to extend the list as much as
> possible?
>
I don't have the time to do that as well. I can add a couple cities to
the list though (ones I'm sure of):

Arnhem
Bolsward
Delden
Elburg
Groningen
Harderwijk
Hasselt
Nijmegen
Oldenzaal
Ommen
Roermond
Stavoren
Tiel
Venlo

The page at http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanzestad also mentions a large
number of Hanse cities.

The page at http://www.vlieland-info.nl/Trompshs.html mentions that
"meerdere Friese steden" were members of the Hanse.

Henry

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From:  "Franz Firla" f.firla at web.de
To:  "R. F. Hahn" <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:  Vögelchen und Hanse

Leewen  R.Franz,
die Diskussion über die Hansestädte hat mich an meine Überlegungen zur
Verbreitung des "Sinter Mätes Vögelsche"-Liedes erinnert. Es gibt ja in
Dünkirchen einen fast identischen Text und Martinsvögelchen-Motiv-Lieder
in
West-Ost-Richtung ab Venlo über Duisburg ,Dortmund, Paderborn, die Altmark
bis nach Wismar hoch an die Ostsee.
Nicht nur Handelsgüter, sondern eben auch Literatur und Liedgut wurden
sicherlich auf diesem Wege hin und her transportiert. Zwischen Dünkirchen
und Venlo fehlen mir allerdings noch Beweise für eine Verbreitung entlang
dieser Achse. Da der Liedtyp nachgewiesenermaßen mindesten 850 Jahre alt
sind, ist eine Verbreitung in der Zeit der Hanse plausibel.
Und wo der Ursprungsort war, das bleibt eine ebenso spannende wie
höchstwahrscheinlich unlösbare Frage.
Große Dichte bei den Textüberlieferungen machen, zusammen mit anderen
historischen Fakten, den Ursprung des Liedtyps im Gebiet Niederrhein/Ems
wahrscheinlich.

Grüße

Franz

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Folks,

Franz is wondering if the Martinmas song about St. Martin’s "little birds"
was at least in part transmitted via the Hanseatic trading roots all the way
from Dunkerk to Wismar on the Baltic Sea coast.  He has been tracing this
song, which is at least 850 years old, from Venlo eastward but still needs
some information about the song between Dunkerk and Venlo.  Can anyone help?

Franz add that strong regional occurrence clustering of the song makes it
likely that the song originated somewhere on the Lower Rhine and Ems.

So, there you have my public service bit for today.

Personally I would like to add to this that I feel that clustering of extant
versions of the song ought not be overvalued.  Martinmas is of predominantly
Roman Catholic importance.  It is true that some versions of the song have
survived in local traditions of now predominantly Protestant areas.  But
this is not to say that today's occurrences are necessarily representative
of its pre-Reformation spread.  Today's occurrences in such areas may simply
be sporadic cases of survival.  It stands to reason that the song has had
far better survival chances in areas that remained predominantly Roman
Catholic.  This could very well account for stronger survival clustering in
this day and age.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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