LL-L "Culture" 2004.11.24 (03) [E]

Wed Nov 24 20:08:16 UTC 2004

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2004.11.23 (13) [E]

Ron wrote:
"Your remarks do bring up an interesting question: "Is it ethical to use
symbols of other cultures for one's own purposes (where you are running the
risk of being disrespectful to the holders of those symbols and cultures)?"
It may be legal to do so. But is it *ethical*, advisable? [...] I have seen
people run around with Celtic symbols tattooed on them,
including people of non-Celtic background who just find them pretty. How do
you feel about that?"

Tattooing amongst young people is generally just harmless ignorance - I can
think of no-one I know of that age range who has actually researched their
Chinese / Japanese character set. I find it distasteful, but it is a matter
of personal choice as far as I am concerned.

I do not approve of a lot of the so-called "Celtic tribal" nonsense that
mish-mashes whorls and knotwork from every source. It demeans those sources
and create a perceived "tribal" pattern work to be sold on an homogenising
global market. Even in the Celtic countries I see this sort of rubbish
adorning everyone, and I regularly see people wandering about with what they
believe to be a "Celtic" tattoo that is really Norse knotwork or, in
extremis, Samoan or Maori (basically whatever art book the enterprising
tattooist has ripped it from). Yet these people will fiercely argue that
their tatto is Celtic, because some tattooist told them it was.

Again, it is a matter of personal choice, and one that will last the rest of
their natural lives. Regardless of what we think about it, of whether we
approve or disapprove, there is nothing we can do about it.

It would be much better if they had a favourite proverb in Irish / Low Saxon
/ Frisian put on their bodies in my opinion.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2004.11.23 (13) [E]

Criostóir wrote:
> I do not know how prevalent this trend is elsewhere in the world, but
there
> has been a craze in Ireland and Britain among young people for tattoos
> featuring Chinese and Japanese characters. These fashion victims then
parade
> around proudly stating that the indelible scarring they now have says
their
> name, or a motto, or some such other good luck charm "in Chinese /
> Japanese". My answer is always the same: "I didn't know you could speak,
> read or write Chinese / Japanese."

A not-too-bright woman in my choir recently proudly wore a new sweatshirt
with a Japanese character on it. My Japanese friend took me aside, grinning,
and told me that it read "For Sale". She was mean enough not to tell her...

But don't worry, Criostóir, the English many Japanese wear on their clothing
is much worse (frequently involving things like cute teddybears saying the
f*** word, and worse - in the best case, it makes no sense at all). For some
fine examples, visit www.engrish.com.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Culture" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Transliteration
>
> When it comes to using East Asian scripts as decoration, I normally don't
> care.  I've gotten many a laugh out of seeing folks with mirror-image and
> upside-down Chinese characters, even parts of Chinese business contracts
> or
> cooking recipes, printed on their closing or tattooed on their bodies.

But isn't it also true that Asians wear "decorative English" that's often
nonsense? An example in the literature is the in the film "Mystery Train"
where the Japanese girl visiting Memphis, Tenessee has a leather jacket with
"MISTER BABY" printed in large letters on the back.

I suppose it must be easier for Asian artists to get the letters of the
Roman alphbet the right way up and everything, although when a thing's done
by hand the letters often seem out of proportion compared to what a
Westerner would write.

I think people's experiences of piercings is that they heal up all too soon
if you're not careful, although you have to accept that they'll always leave
a scar. I find it harder to understand why people are so keen on permanent
tattoos when you could just have henna. People with tattoos often look down
on henna tattoos but this attitude seems to be getting less prevalent.
Perhaps it's when they begin to run out of space on their bodies that they
begin to wish they'd had henna! With some people a tattoo is intended as a
permanent expression of identity, but to me this just means that they
haven't learned how changeable people can be!

> mutilation).  I am not passing value judgement on their treatment of their
> bodies, even where only fashion-based aping is involved rather than the
> original "political" motivation (counter-cultures with points to make).
> Nor

These can go together, however. For some, especially when they begin to get
older and make some money, the majority peer-pressure on them to turn into
some sort of middle class dinner party thrower yakking endlessly about
buying a property in France means that a certain amount of mutual support
from the others in the counter-culture, which involves aping to some extent,
is necessary to exert a sort of counter-pressure against those weird
normals.

> I have seen people run around with Celtic symbols tattooed on them,
> including people of non-Celtic background who just find them pretty.  How
> do
> you feel about that?

I'm inclined to think that it's nonsense to say that people "have non-Celtic
background" - who's to say, especially considering the surprising amount of
cultural mixing in the past that DNA analyses have revealed? The art was
developed thousands of years ago and no-one alive today has any real claim
to it. And don't forget that the gothic cathedrals of England were
originally inspired by Muslim architects working at Durham, and think of the
"paisley pattern" that most Scottish people think of as a very Scottish
thing.

Having said that, I am speaking from a subculture that's rife with
cross-culturalisms and anachronisms. Consider this lady in top hat and
adapted cheongsam with gothic and Hindu accessories:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v79/AngryAngeltoo/Whitby%20Nov%202004/?action=view&current=whitbynov2004065.jpg

Was I objecting to the way she was dressed? I was not! To my mind art is art
and it's for everybody.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Culture

Sandy (above):

> I'm inclined to think that it's nonsense to say that people "have
> non-Celtic background" - who's to say, especially considering
> the surprising amount of cultural mixing in the past that DNA
> analyses have revealed?

You're absolutely right, Sandy.  Thanks.  It was a stupid thing to say (and
temporarily think) of me.  Besides, I personally have nothing at all against
people borrowing and mixing cultural symbols and permanently marking their
bodies (as long as the latter does not go beyond adults' personal choices).
Also, I've left a purist mindset behind in Europe, also accept cultural
borrowings, even "shocking" ones, in true art.

I would just like to see more sensitivity with regard to other people's
spiritual beliefs', especially when symbols are displayed to others.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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