LL-L "Image" 2004.10.04 (04) [D/E]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2004.10.03 (11) [E]

John wrote:
> I attempted to cut the debate short but Gabriele
> would not take the hint. The point which I wanted to avoid saying is that
it
> is highly insensitive for a German even to _appear_ to be suggesting that
> s/he should be the arbiter of what references may be made to the Nazi
past.
> The "only 10-12 years" remark seemed to me particularly gauche.

Like most people on this list, I object to any racial, ethnical or cultural
bias, no matter where it comes from and against what person or group it is
directed, and I firmly believe that it has no place here (or anywhere else,
for that matter). Neither the reference to Nazi terminology nor the notion
of "civilizing" a continent was originally yours, and yet you made a point
of supporting them, even suggesting that the centuries-long holocaust of the
Native Americans was probably a good thing, since they were such horrible,
cruel people anyway. THAT hint I could take, and those are not issues I can
or ever shall (ha, shall!) remain silent on. Not even when told to "shut up,
or I will say even worse things".

Actually, there is one arbiter on this board, namely Reinhard, who gets to
decide what is posted and what isn't. The rest of us still have the right to
object to what is being said, especially whein it is said about others who
are not part of this forum and therefore cannot defend themselves. And, when
someone indicates that they find some of the contents hurtful and offensive,
the usual reaction is something along the lines of "I'm sorry, this didn't
sound quite right".

Let me assure you, although my Jewish husband has been living in Germany for
more than five years now, feels very much at home here and likes both the
country and the people... it is not like I have ever forgotten that,
sixty-five years ago, we would have found ourselves in the middle of a mob
in the marketplace, with shaved heads, and that would have been the last I'd
ever have seen of him. As I said before: this is simply no joking matter.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2004.10.03 (11) [E]

> From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: Image

( Ron, ik begrijp dat het topic moeilijk ligt en er al teveel over gezegd
is. Het is misschien beter de dingen te laten rusten. Ik neem het je dan ook
geenszins kwalijk mocht je dit liever niet opnemen. Ik vertrouw op je
wijsheid.)

John, et all.

I've spent three weeks in the UK this year and it surprised me how often the
war was mentionted in British media sixty years d.d. What frigthened me even
more was the militaristic look of large parts of the male juveniles and
adults. The reason for this, to me seems a chauvinistic reflex in which
people tend to remember their last great achievement. While most Europeans
see the unification of Europe as a turning point in its violent history, the
British gouvernement still prefers to spy on their E.U allies to please
their big brother. By becoming a full member of the E.U. and act like one,
British media and hence their receptors could reach a more contemporary
world view: all man are sisters. But please, don't make the mistake that we
all want Britain in the E.U., we 'd rather not see a Trojan horse inside the
walls of fortress Europe.

Groeten,

Jo Thys

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Image

Folks,

The only reason why I have been letting this go on this long -- besides the
reason that I am extremely reluctant to censor -- is that this topic is not
altogether irrelevant in that it deals with generalized images brought about
by the creation and interaction of nations, borders dividing former
linguistic and cultural continua (i.e., relatives) up into groups that can
be and have been pitted against each other, which makes it easier to bear
grudges and to form and perpetuate stereotypes.   It has always been my
vision for us to move beyond national divisiveness, to discuss things as
individuals on a less nation-based and personally involved level.  However,
this may have been naive of me, given that all or most of us are also
national(ized) individuals.

While this is an interesting topic, it is also a difficult one to discuss
and handle in a very diverse group like ours.   Since there have been signs
of this developing into a slinging match, it is time to cut it off
somewhere.  It seems to me that the least partial way of doing so is to set
a time limit.  Beginning tomorrow, I will no longer post submissions that
continue this specific discussion thread (though other types of submissions
on "Image" will be acceptable).  I will send out today's last batch of
postings
between 5 and 6 p.m. my time (i.e., PCT,  Greenwich Mean Time tomorrow 1-2
a.m.).

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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