LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.10.07 (04) [E/German/Middelsprake]

Thu Oct 7 15:52:32 UTC 2004

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L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Erik Guldager Nielsen <eguldager at mail-online.dk>
Subject: Middelsprake on Skadinavisch

An Reinhard

Ich war sehr faziniert von Ingmars Middelsprake, denn seine Sprache ist
tatsächlich die Brücke zwischen Skandinavisch und die "autorisierten"
Lowlands-Sprachen.
Darüber hatten wir eine längeren Konversation und wir sind einig dass diese
Konversation auch für andere Lowlanders interessant sein könnte.

Ist gibt mehrere interessante Punkte, z.B. dass schriftlich Kommunikation
zwischen Dänen und Niederländern fast möchlich ist und dass Staatsgrenzen
Sprachgebiete wie Niederländisch (Nederland/België) und Skandinavisch
(Danmark/Norge/Sverige) zerstört.

OBS: Die Diskussion muss von hinten gelesen werden.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen

Ingmar und Erik

***
-Aha, de danisch uutsprake schal wese ennoch wider fran de ander
skandinavisch sprakes den nu...

Egenlig dat is okso de same ting hir in Nederland: Hollandisch (i.e.
West-Nederlandisch) uutsprake is forandered mennig de lest twüntig jare.
Darfor en belgisch (flamisch) spreker af Nederlandisch kan ofte nik forsta
good wat ene fran Amsterdam oller De Haag segge, on ig mene nik in der
dialekt doch alene in der aksent af de standard-sprake.

Ig löve dat man kiose for Engelisch fordat man föle skamed waneer man
probere spreke en relatered sprake dat man kenne nik perfekt. In Brüssel,
mennig Nederlanders spreke eer Fransisch den Nederlandisch, okso mid
Flamisch folk, fordat de föle skamed for der hollandisch aksent (de meest
Belgiers mag nik lide de Nederlanders so mennig...)

Unfortunately Danish pronounciation is changing rapidly these years away
from the other Scandinavian languages and young people are more and more
changing into English which I think is terrible and unnessary.
PS: Northern Norwegian is easier to understand for Danes than Western
Norwegian which is more linked to Farose and Icelandic!

-----Opprinnelig melding-----

Fra: Ingmar Roerdinkholder [mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl]
Sendt: 4. oktober 2004 12:10
Til: Erik Guldager Nielsen
Emne: Re: Scandinavian

Wat is "Skandinavisch" egenlig ?

Is det waneer two skandinaviers mid forschillig sprakes wil spreke mid de
ander, on de probere boide en lüttel to spreke de ander mans sprake?

Ig ha seen en television-programma over two danisch dokters (en man on fru)
we hadde gaan to Nord-Norwege for wirk mid der familie. Doch de blivede
spreke Danisch okso to der norisch patients, on de patients brukede Norisch.
Ig löve dat de al forsta de ander...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Erik Guldager Nielsen" <Erik.G.Nielsen at nb.no>
To: "'Ingmar Roerdinkholder'" <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 11:23 AM
Subject: SV: Scandinavian

Yes, I have lived in Norway for 11 years now, because of the unemployment in
EU.

The first 7 years I lived the Western part so I know nynorsk quite well, but
now I live in the Eastern part where only bokmål (Dano-norisch) is spoken. I
write nynorsk fairly good and bokmål as good as a native. As an employee of
the state I have to the answar any mail in the language it is written
(nynorsk or bokmål) , but I speak "skandinavisch".

I think nynorsk is an interesting experiment. Trying to make a new Norwegian
language based on the dialects. But because it is based only on the Western
dialects it is highly unpopular in Eastern and Northern Norway and it is a
bit difficult for Danes to understand (though it IS possible if you are
willing to make an effort.

However the odd thing about nynorsk is that in order to make it less like
Danish (and thus less Plattdütsch/Nederlands) it is a bit more "Hochdeutsch"
For example:

Ein stein (masc.) (da./bo. = en sten (common gender))
Ei natt (fem.) (Ger.: = eine Nacht (fem.), (da./bo. = en natt (common
gender))
Eit heim (neutr.) (Ger.: = Heim), (da./bo. = et hjem (neutr.).

You are not the only one who thinks Danish is easier written than spoken.
Norwegians and Swedes agree with you on that!

Erik

-----Opprinnelig melding-----

Fra: Ingmar Roerdinkholder [mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl]
Sendt: 4. oktober 2004 10:29
Til: Erik Guldager Nielsen
Emne: Re: Scandinavian

Erik:

I think I feel more like home in Nederland than anywhere else outside
Scandinavia.

And the landscape is even more like in Denmark than in Norway where I live.

>>>>>Aha, leve du in Norwege nu? Spreke du Danisch dar oller Norisch oller
"Skandinavisch", on kenne du okso Nünorisch (Landmaal) oller alene
"Dano-Norisch"?
Sometimes when I'm in Nederland I forget that people do not understand
Danisch because I can read all the signs etc., but even Dutch mentallity is
more like Danisch than for instance German or French. I like to visit Gemany
and France, but I do not feel "home" the way I do in Nederland.

>>>>>Dis sommer ig ware in Danemarke, mid miin fru on two sonne.
Wi hadde en lit huus in Ribe, Südwest-Jütland ("Danemarkes oldest stad") on
wi ha besöked okso Aarhus, Esbjerg, Tønder, Aabenraa, Billund (Legoland) on
ander stade on torpe dat ig ha forgeted nu...

Ig ha okso seen ho mennig Danemarke (Jütland) like as Nederland, special
Nordööst-Nederland, de Nedersaksisch deel af de land. Doch natuurlig
Nederland is mennig fuller mid autos, huse, wegge on folk...

Ig mot segge dat de danisch sprake is good to lese, doch det ware nik
wirklig to forsta for mi waneer det ware spreked...

Erik:

When I hear somebody speak Schwyzerdütsch (and I'm not in Switzerland) I
think they are speaking Dutch until I get a closer look (hear), but even
when I get in closer contact whith Schwytzerdütsch I am amazed that it is so
much closer to Plattdütsch (and Scandinavian) than Hochdeutsch.

To bispiel:
Weisswein = wiswin (da. = hvidvin)
Haus = hus (da. = hus)
mein = min (da. = min)
aus = us (da. = ud)
erzählen = vertelle(n) (da. = fortælle)
und so weiter

Beste groeten

Erik

Hei Ingmar

>>>Hei Erik

Although I can read Dutch and (even better) Middelsprake I'm not fluent in
writing them, so alas I must answer you in English.

>>>Miin Danisch is okso nik super... doch ig finde det alrede good dat du
kenne enig Nederlands I sent this "Scandinavian" document to the
Lowlands-list a couple a months ago and there was a short discussion on the
list. I got big support from a (low) German, but the interest for
Scandinavian seems to be very limited on the list.

>>>Oh, ig ware ennoch nik up de list in dat tiid, fordat ig ha nik lesed det
I might consider writing about MS on the list, but right now I'm a little
behind the diskussions because I have been visiting my Swiss family (and
listening to the many similiarities between schwyzerdütsch and plattdütsch).

Erik

>>>Okay, tenke over skrive over MS, gerne!

Ig wetede nik dat Switserdütisch on Nedersaksisch er so liik; doch ig wete
dat de Switserisch aksent is mennig likas Nederlandisch, waneer man höre en
Switserlander spreke, he klinge meer likas en Nederlander den likas en
Dütische.

Gruesli!

Ingmar

-----Opprinnelig melding-----

Fra: Ingmar Roerdinkholder [mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl]
Sendt: 1. oktober 2004 11:37
Til: Erik Guldager Nielsen
Emne: Re: Scandinavian

Hei Erik

Waneer ig forsta det good, du ha sended de dokument kalled "Scandinavian" to
de Lowlands-list?
Prima, dat kan wese en interessant diskussion! Ig schal reagere waneer ig ha
enig ting to segge okso.
Mag ig frage di enig ting, Erik?
Du ha skrived dat du finde Middelsprake en natuurlig brog to middel af
skandinavisch on de ander (west-)germanisch sprakes, on dat det is better to
forsta for Skandinavisch folk, uter enig studi befor.

Magschie du kan skrive dat okso to de List? Ig wete dat mennig folk up
Lowlands tenke okso positiv over MS, de skrive mi "off list" to segge dat on
frage meer information over dis sprake.

Waneer man skrive dat openlig up de list MS ha meer kanse, forsta du?

Ig wil okso frage de "Lowlanders" to helpe mi wirke an MS. Nu de enig
material dat wi ha er Concise Outlines on al de emails dat ig ha skrived.
Dar is mennig wirk to bue det uut, natuurlig folgens de MS koncept, doch al
interesseredes kan lerne dat.

Alene ig wete nik wat de "boss" Ron tenke af dat, ig hope dat he schal finde
det good okso...

Ingmar

----- Original Message -----

From: "Erik Guldager Nielsen" <Erik.G.Nielsen at nb.no>
To: <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 9:31 AM
Subject: Scandinavian

> <<Scandinavian.doc>>
> Ik vinde ook dat Scandinavisch meer "Lowlands" is
> dan Englisch, maar dat is wijl Frans het officiele taal van Engeland in
300
> jaaren was.
>
> Beste groeten
> Erik Guldager Nielsen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Dag, Ingmar en Erik!

Een dank an ji two junge!  Aha!  Nu ha wi hir de begin af een
Middelsprake-gang!  (It's a conspiracy!)

Nu ha ig een fraag for ju: Schalde de schriwing fan de lange on korte vokale
nik wese strikter?  Warfor schriwe mennig mennische "hus" on nik "huus"?

Nog een: Warfor "magschie" on nik "magschee" oller "mag sche"?
Skandinavisch "måske," "kanske" o.s.w. komme fran Middel-Saksisch
("Middel-Nederdüdisch") "mag schên" ("may happen" = "perhaps").  "Scheen"
("to happen") schulde een verb wese.  "Maybe" schulde na miin mening "mag
sche", "kan sche" on/oller "kan wese" hete.  In Neder-Saksisch
("Nederdüdisch," "Plat-Düdisch") kan wi okso "kan wesen (dat ...)" for
"maybe" segge.

Gröte,
Reinhard/Ron

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