LL-L "Orthography" 2004.10.19 (09) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Orthography"

> From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
> Subject:
>
> > Grongen Saxon is supposed to be included in the range, so it is:
> >
> > ey = [e.I] ~ [E.I] ~ [a.I] ~ [A.I]
>
> ~ [O.I]
>
> > I believe that in Groningen, too, the first vowel is slightly
lengthened,
> > obeying a language-wide vowel lengthening rule before sonorants, i.e.,
> > vowels, glides, liquids and nasals.
>
> They are. That is also why you see people write 'perbaairen' and not
> 'perbairen' (perbeiren ~ proberen ~ probieren)
>
> > My dialect does not have [ai]; it has [E.I].  It and Groningen [A.I]
> > (spelled _aai_ in Dutch-based conventions) belong to the North Saxon
> > phonetic variant range represented by ANS <ey>.
>
> but don't you write kaiser? arbaiten etc?
>
> There is a phoneme difference between ai and aai in Groningen Low
> Saxon and also in East Frisian since they write 'ei' ([A.I]) in the
> words where Gronings have aai.
>
> > The Lower Elbe dialects monophthongize diphthongs before /r/:
> >
> > peyrd [pi:3`t] (vs [pE.I3`t]) 'horse'
> > vourts [fu:3`ts] (vs [fO.U3`ts]) 'immediately'
> > köyr [ky:3`] (vs [kœ.I3`]) 'choice'
>
> This apparently happens a lot more in the Netherlands.
>
> > Ingmar, Kenneth, I'd be quite willing to consider using <ii> for [i:].
> > After all, it's the oldest written form (from which <y> and <ij>
> developed)
> > and it would be more consistent with the system:
>
> And later ie was introduced since handwrittten ii looks like ü.
>
> Regarding to z or s. Most Middle-age Low Saxon texts that I have read
> use s where Dutch use z.
>
> Regards,
> Kenneth
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Orthography
>
> Kenneth:
>
> > > My dialect does not have [ai]; it has [E.I].  It and Groningen [A.I]
> > > (spelled _aai_ in Dutch-based conventions) belong to the North Saxon
> > > phonetic variant range represented by ANS <ey>.
> >
> > but don't you write kaiser? arbaiten etc?
> >
> > There is a phoneme difference between ai and aai in Groningen Low
> > Saxon and also in East Frisian since they write 'ei' ([A.I]) in the
> > words where Gronings have aai.
>
> In that case you should differentiating them by using the same system:
> ay vs aay
>
> ... if you are *sure* you are dealing with a phonemic distinction and not
> with a phonological rule, i.e., allophones (e.g., before sonorants).
Could
> you give us some examples, enough of them to decide if it is phonemic or
> allophonic?
>
> In any event, it would be no problem to the reader, just as it is no
problem
> to the listener.  We are dealing with an orthographic *system* here, not
> with creating a standard dialect.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Hello all !
I don't want to explain my proposals for an Eastern Friesland Low Saxon
orthography here (if You are interested, have a look at
www.holger-weigelt.de) but just make the following remarks:
If You want to understand the phonological system of EFLS You mustn't look
how it is written in a German based way. For the -ai- diphthong as an
example there are three variants:
short -ai- [aI], long -āi- [a:I] and extra-lengthened -âi- [a:aI]
which are different from
-äi- [æI] / -äie- [æ:æI]
or
-ei- [EI] / -äj- [E:I]  / -äej- [E:EI].
None of them has anything to do with long -ē-.
It's similar for example with -au- and -ō-.
But in local or individual language use You will sometimes hear
diphthongized pronounciation of those long monophthongs [e:i] [o:u] which
must strictly be divided from the real diphthongs and hasn't to be reflected
in orthography.
(Some quickly chosen examples for comparison: mait = maid, mâit = effort; sē
= said, säi = she/they, säj = lake; lēp = went, läip = bad, nasty)
Greetings
Holger

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