LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.02 (02) [E/Middelsprake]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2004.09.01 (13) [Middelsprake]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
> Subject: intro
>
> Good aven folk!
>
> Ig wil make mi self kenned an ju:
> miin name is Ingmar Roerdinkholder, ig kom fra Nederland on ha mennig
> interesse in sprake, okso germanisch sprakes on dialekts, likas
> Nedersaksisch, Frisisch on de nordgermanisch oller skandinavisch sprakes.
> Miin modersprake is Nederlandisch, miin moderdialekt Nedersaksisch doch ig
> spreke mennig ander Nederlandisch dialekts,
> under wilk Zeeuws on Flamisch (wiil miin moder is fra de flamisch deel af
> de
> provincie Zeeland, NL), Brabantisch
> (wiil ig ha leved meer den teen jare in de provincie Brabant, NL).
> Ig wete ennoch nik so good for wat on for we dis liist is eksakt doch ig
> tenke dat det kan wese interessant for mi.
>
> To wete enigting meer over mi, Ji kan ga to de website af
> www.drentsetaol.nl, dar schal du finde en good tal
> af miin nedersaksisch dichte (ig skrive poesi in de nedersaksisch dialekt
> af
> Drenthe).
> Okso up dat website du kan finde meer over de sprake dat du lese nu,
> "Middelsprake", de intergermanisch sprake dat
> ig ha kreered, on dat mot wese de meen sprake to middel af Dütisch,
> Engelisch, Nederlandisch, Nedersaksisch on Frisisch, doch okso Danisch,
> Swedenisch on (Nü-)Norisch.
> Du kan klikke under Neie Taol up www.drentsetaol.nl on lade neder de
> dokument Concise Outlines of Middelsprake.
>
> So, after dis kort intro ig schal stoppe on se wat de andres ha skrived de
> lest tiid
>
> Mid de hertlig gröte! Ingmar

Wow! I actually understood most of that (knowing a little bit of German
helps, I guess).  I usually only skim over anything on this list not in
English (but I do give a closer look to posts in Scots or Appalachian), but
this was really interesting to read.  Thanks, Ingmar!

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.01 (16) [E]

> From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
>                                                          In the other
> direction, St Augustine converted England even though he was from the
> Italian peninsula.

Wasn't Augustine actually from North Africa?  Oh wait. I just looked up
Augustine and see that there are two St. Augustines.  The first, St.
Augustine of Hippo (354-430) was from North Africa and wrote "The City of
God", while the other, St. Augustine of Canterbury (died in 605), was born
in Rome and was the "Apostle to the English".  You learn something new every
day!

Kevin Caldwell

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2004.09.01 (13) [Middelsprake]

Ingmar wrote:
> Okso up dat website du kan finde meer over de sprake dat du lese nu,
> "Middelsprake", de intergermanisch sprake dat
> ig ha kreered, on dat mot wese de meen sprake to middel af Dütisch,
> Engelisch, Nederlandisch, Nedersaksisch on Frisisch, doch okso Danisch,
> Swedenisch on (Nü-)Norisch.

Ingmar, I'm totally intrigued by this! I started reading your post and could
understand every word, although I had no idea what language or dialect this
was supposed to be (of the relevant languages, I know German, English,
Dutch, Lower Saxon, Swedish, and a little Norwegian, so between those, it
was easy to figure out).

I am not a linguist (actually, I'm a biologist, although I've been working
as a translator for many years), but merely an avid language user and
language lover. And I find "Middelsprake" very aesthetically pleasing and
"natural", and I'm looking forward to seeing more of it.

Still, forgive me if I'm not going to attempt and learn to use it actively,
because I find it hard enough to speak proper Swedish or even Lower Saxon
these days (although I grew up with the latter) - I tend to automatically
speak Durch instead, at least when I haven't been immersed in the other
language for a while. So this would only be more confusing.

Best regards,
Gabriele Kahn

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.01 (16) [E]

John Feather wrote:
> >When the monks from Ireland came to christianise the people in Flanders,
in
> the seventh century, they must have been well understood by the locals. I
> assume that the languages were very close.<
> But we can't ignore the possibility that a few of them were linguists or
> that they employed interpreters. Why would Irish monks have spoken OE? In
> the course of his missionary journeys in the first half of the 8th century
> the Anglo-Saxon St Boniface (the 'Apostle of Germany') first went to
> Friesland and later to Thuringia, Bavaria, Hesse and Saxony. Since it is
> contrary to all linguistic knowledge to suggest that there are close
> similarities between the High German of Bavaria and Frisian or Saxon the
> success of Christian missions to the Continent is not in itself any kind
of
> evidence for the mutual intelligibility of languages. In the other
> direction, St Augustine converted England even though he was from the
> Italian peninsula. "Hatte er nicht wenigstens _einen_ Dolmetscher bei
sich?"

Well, when young Mormon men go out into the world as missionaries nowadays,
they undergo a year or so of intensive linguistic training and learn to
speak the language of the country they will be sent to very thoroughly
before they go. I had quite a few Mormon colleagues when I worked in
international software QA at Intel in Oregon, because they usually speak at
least one foreign language fluently.

So why should we assume that missionary monks of yore, who were scholars,
after all, went less prepared than these modern high-school graduates? They
already spoke a second language, Latin, anyway - so maybe it is not
mentioned anywhere that they prepared themselves by learning the language
first, probably from a native teacher, because it goes without saying?

Just a theory...
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.01 (16) [E]

Dear Luc & John

Subject: Language varieties

(Mark) May I jump in here?

> Luc said:
> >Tacitus distinguishes different tribes and mixes already Celtic and
> Germanic speakers. So German tribes were there  before the so-called
> 'Migratory  Period'.<
> Sorry if I'm being dense but where is "there"?

Well, the (ancient) Old Belgia for one (& it had a faaar broader extent than
the modern Belgium). The Belgicae that so impressed the Roman soldiers were
known to be a cultural blend of Teutonic & Celtic. This is so much so that
they had a god named Gwidion, who rode his horse in battle or in storm, & he
had the company of two owls who told him every secret. This is just a
revision of the Teutonic Woden, the god of storm & battle, with two black
crows who brought him news from all over the World.

> >When the monks from Ireland came to christianise the people in Flanders,
in
> the seventh century, they must have been well understood by the locals. I
> assume that the languages were very close.
> But we can't ignore the possibility that a few of them were linguists or
> that they employed interpreters. Why would Irish monks have spoken OE? In
> the course of his missionary journeys in the first half of the 8th century
> the Anglo-Saxon St Boniface (the 'Apostle of Germany') first went to
> Friesland and later to Thuringia, Bavaria, Hesse and Saxony. Since it is
> contrary to all linguistic knowledge to suggest that there are close
> similarities between the High German of Bavaria and Frisian or Saxon the
> success of Christian missions to the Continent is not in itself any kind
of
> evidence for the mutual intelligibility of languages. In the other
> direction, St Augustine converted England even though he was from the
> Italian peninsula. "Hatte er nicht wenigstens _einen_ Dolmetscher bei
sich?"

They had Latin, of course, & the many languages of their slaves. The Irish
had their little viking period before the Norse got started. St Patrick was
a British boy taken slave, who escaped, & returned to bring the Gospel to
Erin. There is so little written about it, but for example, South Whales,
parts of Cornwall, All of the Isle of Wight & 'Scottish' Albion were
actually occupied & settled by the Irish. They traded & raided even furthar
afield. They were even on Iceland before the Norse. They raided all over the
North Sea Littoral, & I am moved to wonder  if, in their wanderings, they
didn't turn up little knots of unreconstructed Gaelish speakers in the
ostensibly Romance Gaul, & Frankish France.

> >With this oldest Flemish sentence i quoted before (and i found two
> different spellings of it) my point was that some scholars believe that
the
> languages in Kent and Flanders in that particular time,  were almost
> identical. There was a lot of trading in this part of Western Europe, and
> the separation of the two regions is only a few miles.

There was certainly heavy trade between the two, & it is the subject of much
academic attention.
I read in an illustration of manuscripts the text of King Alfred's treaty
with the Norse Chieftan Guthram. I didn't at that time know Old English, but
I was interested in calligraphy, & had swotted the Insular script. Imagine
my pleasure when I found how much I could follow of the Language! That
started me on something. It shows how close the dialects must have been,
between Kent & Dunkirk, if this Latecoming Austral variant of Low Dutch,
Afrikaans, could still carry the meaning from that old scribe to me!

Regarding that sentence, let me try something.
Old Flemish
'hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase
hi(c) (e)de thu uu(at) (u)nbida(n) (uu)e nu.'
Old English
"hebben aella fugolas nesta onginnan buton
ic end thu hwaet abidan we nu."
& just for fun, Afrikaans
(Het alle voëls beginne nes buitens
ek en jy, waarvoor wag ons nou?)

We appreciate that the different values of 'u', 'uu', 'v', 'w' & 'f' in the
different orthographies make the words appear to differ more than is in fact
the case. See how close they are!

> OK, so long as they're the sort of scholars you'd invite round for tea.
But:
> - Have there been major discoveries of early West Flemish documents in the
> last 30 years which have established its similarity with Kentish?

No. The major discoveries were made long ago, & are not open to argument.

> - If so, what special significance does this little text now have?

I believe I have shown it, & I am not a scholar

> - If the original dating is right the sentence is from the end of C11,
right
> at the end of the OE period and (without a lot more information) of
dubious
> relevance to the situation in C6.

No. In the way that languages & dialects diverge, the earlier forms differ
less than the later forms.

> - Separation in miles or km is of little relevance where transport is by
> sea.

Seconded

> - If the languages were very close how do we know that the text is not in
> Kentish?

Well, 'hinase' is a giveaway, & so also, from a calligrapher's point of
view, the use of the double 'U' fr 'W', instead of the 'ween' rune, as an
insular Anglo-Saxon would write - a dead giveaway.

> - If this very short text exists in different spellings (Why?) is it not
> plausible that it is merely a matter of chance that one of them matches
one
> of a number of similar languages?

It doesn't, of course. It is found only in one place. The scholars, however,
have made a careless mistake. Let them be birched!

Yrs,
Mark

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