LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.03 (09) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 03.SEP.2004 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

I wrote: >I disagree with David Barrow and Henno about "forlorn" as in
"forlorn hope". "Forlorn" is an E word to which the Du word "verloren" was
assimilated. The word actually took on a new metaphorical sense from the Du
and is now only used in that way. I actually thought of including this
example in the "Hals- und Beinbruch" strand but didn't want to invite the
arguments ...<
Well, they've gate-crashed anyway.

David replied:
>I never said forlorn wasn't English. The paragraph I quoted says forlorn is
from OE and hope in the phrase is from Dutch hoop. So forlorn hope is part
translation part borrowing. And has taken on a meaning specific to English
because of the word 'hope'.
> Forlorn isn't just used in the phrase. From Longman Dictionary of
contemporary English
>Forlorn: adj 1 Seeming lonely and unhappy _ a forlorn little figure sitting
outside the station_
>2 A place that is forlorn seems empty and sad and is often in bad condition
_ the house looked empty and forlorn_
>3 Forlorn hope .<

Well, I never said you said so let's forget about that. I'll try again.
"Forlorn" is a perfectly good OE word. I agree. You say that in the
expression "forlorn hope" it is a translation. I'm suggesting it isn't. My
proposition is that "verloren hoop" was borrowed into E as a whole and the
two words were then assimilated to two similar E words. We have established
elsewhere that this can happen.

We are agreed that "hoop" and "hope" have no semantic connexion. They just
sound alike. Now, "verloren" sounds like "forlorn". It would sound like
"forlorn" even if it meant something quite different from "lost", which is
all that "verloren" means (see below) and meant. " Verloren hoop" as a
phrase means something like "sacrificial squad", the ones who are going to
fill the wall up with their Dutch dead bodies. It didn't matter to the E
troops (or whoever) who heard it whether that first word meant "lost" or
"sacrificial" or "stupidly heroic" or anything else. They didn't rush off to
look it up in their Dutch/English Dictionaries and we can assume they didn't
know much Dutch because they misunderstood "hoop". What they _heard_ sounded
to them like "forlorn hope" and that's what they understood, said and wrote
down. It just happened to turn out that they got one of the words dead wrong
and the other sort-of right. So on this hypothesis "forlorn" is not a
translation any more than "hope" is.
I didn't say that "forlorn" was used only in this phrase. I said it "took on
a new metaphorical sense from the Du and is now only used in that way", ie
in that metaphorical sense. We don't talk about "the forlorn city of the
Incas" or say "I have forlorn £100 on a horse".
You previously wrote:
>forlorn - 1154, "depraved," pp. of obsolete forlesan "be deprived of, lose,
abandon," . Originally "forsaken, abandoned;" sense of "wretched, miserable"
first recorded 1582. Commonly in forlorn hope (1579), which is a partial
translation of Du. verloren hoop, . a suicide mission. The phrase is usually
used incorrectly in Eng., and the misuse has colored the sense of forlorn.<
I may have exaggerated the effect of the phrase "forlorn hope" on creating
the sense which "forlorn" now has but this quotation certainly says that FH
has "colored" it. But looking at the whole quotation, the metaphorical
meanings are all it has had since 1154. The modern definitions of
"verloren", on the other hand, ("Groot Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal")
are close to the root meaning "lost":
1. A lost handkerchief. 2. Lost in a crowd, a shout lost in a storm. 3.
Something one no longer has: Paradise, virginity. 4. Wasted, fruitless. 5.
Technical uses, as in the "lost-wax" process. 6. Morally lost. The "prodigal
son" is "de verloren zoon", but of course he is also "lost" as in the case
of a lost sheep returned to the fold. 7. A couple of culinary terms.
Maybe things were different in C16 but if the range of meanings was similar
to this it seems not unreasonable to say that "verloren" and "forlorn" did
not have the same meaning then, and therefore by this argument too neither
part of "forlorn hope" is a translation from Dutch.

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================