LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.04 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.03 (08) [E]

Sandy wrote:
> And so on. I'm not sure about the use of words like "under", "over" and
"on"
> which seem to be false friends with common English words and might cause
> confusion to English monolinguals. I think it might be better in such
cases
> to borrow the English word, which would hopefully be unambiguous to all.
>
> I'm sure I could quickly learn to understand Middelsprake, but only
because
> I have dabbled in German, Dutch, Frisian, Swedish and Icelandic at times,
> and with words like "kenned" even Scots helps. I'm not so sure that
English
> monolinguals would find it so easy.

Well, quite obviously, English monolinguals do not find ANY language besides
English "so easy", so I don't see the point of using "their" propositions to
make Middelsprake even easier for them just so they won't have the feeling
of having to deal with a language other than English... and after that,
they'll want to change the verbs... and the nouns... and the adjectives...

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.03 (08) [E]

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Language varieties" [E]
>
> > From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
> > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.02 (09) [E/Middelsprake]
> >
> > Good idea, Mike! Many members of this list will be compotent in more
than
> > one Germanic language or at least know a lot about linguistics etc. But
> for
> > me it won't be easy to find a monolingual to test Middelsprake on,
because
> > my compatriots all know Dutch (and often a Dutch dialect) but nearly all
> are
> > more or less competent in the two big GermLangs. Even my 85 year old
> > grandmom, whose first language is Lower Saxon, second lang Dutch, but
she
> > knows quite a lot of English and High German as well. I think in
countries
> > like Germany or the UK it's much easier to find monolingual speakers
>
> I don't know much of the Germanic languages off this island (ie, I do know
> Scots and English very well but not the other languages) and I do find I
get
> stuck with Middelsprake sometimes, eg:
>
> > Ig wil make mi self kenned an ju:
>
> Not sure what the "an" is - unless guessing from the context it must be
> "to".

yep, AN = on, at, to

> > miin name is Ingmar Roerdinkholder, ig kom fra Nederland on ha mennig
>
> "on ha mennig"? - no idea on the first reading, but having familiarised
> myself more I realise it must be "I have many".

well, almost ...on ha mennig... = and have many; ON is a so called 'cross
word' from
und (HGerm), un (LSax), and (Eng), en (NL) & og (Dan/Norw), och (Sw)

> > Miin modersprake is Nederlandisch, miin moderdialekt Nedersaksisch doch
ig
>
> "doch"?

DOCH = but,  < E though, High German, Dutch, Lower Saxon, Frisian: doch

> And so on. I'm not sure about the use of words like "under", "over" and
"on"
> which seem to be false friends with common English words and might cause
> confusion to English monolinguals. I think it might be better in such
cases
> to borrow the English word, which would hopefully be unambiguous to all.
>
MIDDELSPRAKE is not especially meant to be understood by monolingual
speakers
of any GermLang (although I think monolingual Lower Saxons, Frisians and
Dutch would
find that quite easy), in fact  in  'small' countries like Denmark, Holland,
Belgium, Sweden,
Norway etc the majority of people also knows English and (/or) High German
too
So for them (us)  it's much easier to understand Middelsprake and to
recognize the
words from their mother tongue or from one of the other GermLangs they know
  INGMAR

> I'm sure I could quickly learn to understand Middelsprake, but only
because
> I have dabbled in German, Dutch, Frisian, Swedish and Icelandic at times,
> and with words like "kenned" even Scots helps. I'm not so sure that
English
> monolinguals would find it so easy.
> Sandy

I think you're right Sandy; that's also because English isn't really a
"pure" Germanic language
compared to the others but a mixture of Germanic and Romance, so it misses
many basic words
that do appear in all the other languages. And these are exactly the words
an mono-English
speaker won't recognize
     INGMAR

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.03 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch-l at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Sandy:
>
> > > Miin modersprake is Nederlandisch, miin moderdialekt Nedersaksisch
doch
> ig
> >
> > "doch"?
>
> Related to "though," here meaning "but."
>
> This is where the non-Continental varieties are sort of left out of the
loop
> here.  The results of the shift th > d, for instance, are not obvious to
> most of them, unless they are versed in other Germanic varieties and can
see
> the connections.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Well, in the case of 'though' the shift to >d  as in Middelsprake, German,
Dutch, Saxon etc 'doch'
doesn't have to be so difficult, since 'though' is pronounced with voiced
th- ("dho"), just like
'the', 'this', 'that' etc. In Middesprake (MS) this kind of words all have
initial d > doch, de, dis, dat,
but words that have voiceless th- in English like thank, think, three have
initial t in MS > tanke, tenke, tre
We find the same situation in the Scandinavian languages and in Frisian. In
German, Dutch and Lower
Saxon, every initial th becomes d: danken, denken, drei/drie

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.03 (03) [E/Middelsprake]

Dear Yasuji

I'll send you and everyone else who had a reaction to Middelsprake a copy of
the file
"Concise Outlines of Middelsprake" to their personal accounts
Others who are interested can ask me to send them a copy too, of course
   Ingmar
>
> I have read some postings on the abovementioned posting by Ingmar. I am
not
> a professional linguist nor a native speaker of any lowland language. But
> from my poor knowledge of Low Saxon, Netherlandish and English, I can
easily
> understand that the language has clear special features of so-called
lowland
> languages and/or dialects. As an amature language lover, I guess it should
> be a "man-made lowland language" from the word "de intergermanisch
sprake".
> Is my guess out of focus?
> I also would like to know the true character" of this language.
>
> Greeting
> [Yasuji Waki]

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