LL-L "Syntax" 2004.09.07 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: yasuji <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Syntax

From: Yasuji Waki
            yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp
Roh wrote as follows:
Quote
Talking about the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and North German tag _...,
ne?_ [nE], this ought to be quite familiar to our Afrikaans and Japanese
speakers.

In Afrikaans you use _..., nê?_ [nE(:)] in the same way, ne?

And it so happens that ... ね？ _..., ne_ [nE(:)] is also the most commonly
used question tag in Japanese, used particularly frequently by females.  It
may even occur in an affirmative answer, typically of a female speaker or of
a male speaker that needs to tone down assertiveness of his own authority
due to the (formally) higher status of the listener.  E.g.,

寒いですね？  Samui desu ne?
そうですね?   Sou desu ne?

Literally:
Cold _ne_?
So (it) is _ne_?

It's cold, isn't it?
It is, isn't it?

It seems the reply might also be understood as "It appears to be so, doesn't
it?"

The effect seems similar to the one in the English tagged response: the
tagged question makes the response sound less authoritative than just
そうです。_Sou desu._, or the rather abrupt and masculine-sounding
equivalent
そう  _Sou da._ 'It is.'  (Please jump in to correct me if I'm wrong.)

If it's *really* cold and the two speakers, especially if they are female,
want to emphasize their strong agreement, the one who asked the first
question might chime in to the tag of the response, so that both speakers
say it in unison, often drawn out to a long _neeee?_ [nE:::] either with a
falling tone or with a high tone.
Unquote

As a Japanese native speaker, I have read the above descriptions on "the
tagged question" in Japanese very interesting. As Ron wrote, we Japanese use
often such expression in daily converstaion:

"Atsui desu ne. " ( It is hote, isn't is?)
"Sou desu ne."    (Yes, it is so.)

I feel that this "ne" is often used, when the speaker would like to get
"Yes" from his/her companion to talk with.  But, sometimes, he or she
answers "Atsuku nai ne." In this case,
"ne" emphasizes "Not" combined with "nai". "Nai" measn "not".
When I was a student of university, I heard often "...., ne?" at the time
when I spoke with
German teachers out of the class room. But, I have not heard "ne" during the
formal lessons of German language. At that tme, I felt, these two "ne" were
used in very similar situations.

Dear friend Ron, I have not thought that you have refered to Japanese "ne"
in this discussion.

Regards,

Yasuji Waki

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch-l at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Dear friend Yasuki,

> Dear friend Ron, I have not thought that you have refered to Japanese "ne"
> in this discussion.

It was too tempting not to refer to it, because the similarities are
striking.

I am quite interesting in devices (usually morphological or syntactic
devices) that "tone down" statements that would otherwise sound too
authoritative or abrupt, or where the speaker/writer has no direct
knowledge, i.e., reports hearsay.

In Germanic languages, and perhaps in most Indo-European languages there
does not seem to be a uniform device of this sort.  (Question tags are the
closest thing.)  In Turkic languages, there are certain suffixes you must
use to show that you have no first-hand knowledge of what you are reporting.
I suppose you have something like that in Japanese as well (using ... そうです
_... sou desu_ if I remember correctly).   In many cases you can translate
such instances by using "apparently ...," "they say ...," "I've been told,"
"seems ...," etc.

I find such devices rather handy, both as a speaker/writer and as a
listener/reader.  At the very least, they make disclaimers redundant.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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