LL-L "Morphology" 2004.09.12 (13) [A/E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 12.SEP.2004 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.11 (03) [E]

> Ingmar: Concerning the "r-" prefix in the Olland Dialect of LSaxon, am I
to
> understand that you have withdrawn your previous opinion?

>>> John, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about ...

> I previously wrote:
> >So Fru K-F's "rünnertobrennen" ... would presumably be
"herunterzubrennen"
> in HG and "aftebranden" in Du. She ... also writes "ropp op" which I take
to
> equate to Du "daarop op" and HG "herauf auf".<
>
> Given that you seemed to reject my interpretation earlier, what sense did
> you make of these "r-" words when you read the story? I'm sorry to press
you
> on this but I'm trying to get to the bottom of this mutual intelligibility
> question and have to collect grist for my mill wherever I can find it.

>>>Ah, you mean the question if Dutch daar-/hier equates LSaxon r-?
Standard Dutch er- is not the same as German her- or Lower Saxon r-,
where High and Low German would use her-/r- in Standard Dutch and
Dutch Lower Saxon we'd usually use nothing at all. So no er-, hier-, or
daar-
prefixes in those cases. Er-prefix etc has a different meaning, not showing
direction,
origin or a movement as in Germany.

> Is there really a linguistic disjuncture between this dialect and the
LSaxon
> of the Netherlands?
>
Yes, her- and r- are typically for Germany. R- instead of her- is also
normal in spoken High German,
like   raus, rein, rüber < heraus, herein, herüber etc; so maybe the Lower
Saxon dialect of Germany
borrowed this r- prefix from colloquial German, via the city Mischings (?),
where Lower Saxon of
the Netherland maintained the original situation without prefix?
 Ingmar

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.11 (03) [E]

For understanding the story the r- did not bother me at all, but of course I
noticed that it deviated from my own Lower Saxon and Dutch usage.
It seemed less pure, more influenced by High German because of this prefix.
In fact, the r-prefix immediately tells that the speaker (writer) has to be
German.
Dutch Lower Saxons who are not familiar with German may have more trouble
with it,
but I don't believe it really would disturb their comprehension, as long as
the two dialects
are closely enough related in other aspects.
You can try it yourself in English too: if you'd add a little word in a
sentence where it doesn't
belong that might seem odd but you'd still understand what is meant.

For example:
I don't know what you're talking about it.
I understand where you have been there.
Can you help John with his homework of him?

These sentences may sound strange but they are perfectly clear to English
speakers.

However, speaking of mutual intelligibility between Lower Saxon of Holland
and Germany:
that is decreasing more and more because of the massive influence of the
Standard languages.
My 85-years old grandmother -who lives in the Netherlands- still can speak
in her own dialect with
someone from across the German border of the same age without too much
trouble, but for
younger generations I'm afraid this is certainly much less obvious. Maybe
formerly the Lower Saxon
dialects of Germany were a lot more like Dutch than they are today, I don't
know....
  Ingmar

> Given that you seemed to reject my interpretation earlier, what sense did
> you make of these "r-" words when you read the story? I'm sorry to press
you
> on this but I'm trying to get to the bottom of this mutual intelligibility
> question and have to collect grist for my mill wherever I can find it.

----------

From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: Literature (re -je)

Jo Thys gave this example:

> Die lachjes,
>  Die klaghjes,
>  By draghjes,
>  Die daghjes,
>  Die nachjes,
>  Dat allerzoetste zoetje,
>  Mengen moetje
>  Met een roetje,
>  Of ik stik aan lekkerny.
> ...
I thought other members might be interested in this, by C.J.
Langenhoven, also interesting in terms of the evolution of Afrikaans:

  Lam-tie-tie, dam-tie-tie, doe-doe my liefstetjie,
  Moederhart-rowertjie, dierbaarste diefstetjie!
  Luister hoe fluister die wind deur die boompietjie,
  Heen en weer wieg hy hom al oor die stroompietjie:
  Doe-doe-doe, bladertjies, Slapenstyd nadertjies,
  Doe-doe-doe blommetjies, Nag is aant kommetjies,
  So sing die windjie vir blaartjies en blommetjies.

  Bo in die bloue lug flikker die sterretjies,
  Hemelse brandwaggies, lampies van verretjies,
  Wakend oor windjies en wolkies en stroompietjies,
  Wakend oor mensies en diertjies en boompietjies:
  Wees maar gerustetjies, Slaap maar met lustetjies!
  So sing die sterretjies, Stilletjies, verretjies:
  Vuurvliegies, lugliggies, ewige sterretjies!

  Onskuldig ogies en voetjies en handetjies,
  Wie weet hoe ver moet my kleintjie nog ganetjies!
  Ver deur die wereld en kronkels en gangetjies.
  Bly tog maar kleintjies en bly dit maar langetjies.
  Bly maar by moedertjie, Kindlief se hoedertjie,
  Slaap in haar arrempies, Saggies en warrempies,
  Doekies dan, doekies in moeder se arrempies!

(They do grow up so terribly fast, don't they!)

Groete,
John

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