LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.13 (05) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi All

Henry, you wrote:

"Can I "raise the Saxon flag" for this one? Why is it
assumed that
skates
is borrowed from Dutch? I have trouble with the k. In
my Saxon dialect
we say "skaatse", whereas the Dutch word is "schaats".
If it's borrowed
from Dutch, wouldn't it be more likely that the
English word would be
"shate(s)"? Saxon however already has the k in it, so
that looks more
obvious to me."

It could well be from Saxon and not from Dutch,
however, the 'sch' of Dutch for English ears is closer
to English 'sk' than English 'sh'. Many English people
have problems with the 'ch' /x/ sound and substitute
it with k - compare Scots 'loch' which is often
pronounced 'lock' by English people.

Gary

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From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.12 (14) [E]

Leive Lüe,

> Lower Saxon of Germany usually has initial sch [S] like in High German,
> earlier also s-ch [sx] in the Western varieties.
>  Ingmar
In Westphalia, there exist different pronunciation of this phoneme.
In the variety that I have learned, i.e. Southern "Mönsterlandish", it is
usually
pronounced as [S] initially as in Schaul [Saul] (school) and as [Sk]
medially and finally:
Düütsch [dü:tSk] (German), Tasche [taSk@] (pocket).

I think that earlier this phoneme was pronounced [sk] but never [sx] as far
as I know.

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.rub.de

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.12 (14) [E]

Ingmar wrote:
 >
> Dear Henry,
>
> The vast majority of Saxon dialects in the Netherlands have initial sch-
> [sx] in stead of sk- in this kind of words; for example: scheuvels
[sx2:vls]
> = skates in Drenthe Lower Saxon.
 >
Not in Twente, most everybody there uses a k in that type of words. And
it may be that most Saxon speakers in the Netherlands now use sch, but
what was the situation a couple centuries ago, when the word could have
been borrowed? I think k was predominant then.

> As every Dutchman knows, the sport of skating is dominated by Frisians, so
> I'd assume English skates borrowed via Frisian or dialect of the province
of
> Noord Holland (capital Amsterdam) would be even more likely than the Saxon
> theory.
 >
Hanseatic League.

regards,
Henry

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.12 (09) [E]

> From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.31 (05) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
>>
>> Apparently true "Dutch" loan I can add to the list:
>>
> <snip/>
>>
>> skates (< schaetse)
>>
> Can I "raise the Saxon flag" for this one? Why is it assumed that
> skates
> is borrowed from Dutch? I have trouble with the k. In my Saxon dialect
> we say "skaatse", whereas the Dutch word is "schaats". If it's borrowed
> from Dutch, wouldn't it be more likely that the English word would be
> "shate(s)"? Saxon however already has the k in it, so that looks more
> obvious to me.
>
> regards,
> Henry
In my West-Flemish it is also "skatse - skatsen/ schatse - schatsen"
besides "skaverdijn".
groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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