LL-L "Morphology" 2004.09.13 (06) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.09 (03) [E/LS]

> From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: Language varieties
...
> But one of the most awkward things is the verb prefix "r-". This
> equates to
> the "her-" of high German, and to the best of my knowledge a similar
> usage
> is rarely if ever found in Dutch. There are a few phrases in which
> "her"
> stands as a separate word, and "hier-" is used as a prefix but not
> normally
> indicating motion. Du "her-" is presumed to derive from French "re-",
> with a
> similar range of meanings.

>
> So Fru K-F's "rünnertobrennen" (referring to "Talliglichten", ie Du
> "kaarsen", E "candles") would presumably be "herunterzubrennen" in HG
> and
> "aftebranden" in Du. She (if I dare use the word) also writes "ropp op"
> which I take to equate to Du "daarop op" and HG "herauf auf". But in
> Standard HG the correct usage is "hinauf auf". I was once in a
> translation
> class containing a few German students and the teacher asked them to
> explain
> the difference in meaning between "hin-" and "her-" because she judged
> from
> their geographical origin that they were "her-" people  (I nearly wrote
> "Her-renvolk") and wouldn't find it easy. Is it simply a matter of
> North vs
> South, and which way round?
>
> Dutch has "heen-" corresponding to HG "hin-" but there are very few
> verbs
> with this prefix in the Van Dale Dutch/English dictionary and only two
> handfuls in the GWNT, though it says that this is only a selection. By
> contrast Langenscheidt's Encyclopaedic German/English Dictionary has
> over 10
> pages of German words (verbs, etc) in "hin-" and Duden's Deutsches
> Universal-Woerterbuch" has over 20 columns of them. So is it the case
> that
> Dutch does not in practice make much use of "heen-", which is
> suggested by
> the Van Dale dictionaries? Or is it just that the German count is so
> much
> higher because of the compound prefixes "hin-" + preposition which
> Dutch
> (volgens mij) doesn't seem to make much use of? All contributions
> gratefully
> received.
>
> John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk
"Her" is much used (as a prefix) in Flemish.
Some examples from my Flemish idioticon:
Her  = (once) again
(You never hear the "h" pronounced, so one could write "er"  also)
-Doe dat her. Lees dat her. Zeg dat her (= Herdoe dat. Herlees dat.
Herzeg dat.)
E: Do this again, read this again,say this again.
Het regent en herregent = Het regent en blijft regenen
E: it keeps on raining.
-Van her / van nieuw en her
E:again
"Her" is also pronounced as " hèr/heer/herd/hers/herst/hersten"
hergaan =E:  to do it again
herheulen =E:  to lift up some soil again
(? heredewere/herekadere =E:  all mixed up)
heroôgst = E: a second harvest
hers/hersch = E: to be the old one again
herwaarts/herrewaarts =E:  to come this  way
herwaarts over =E:  to come over here
We don't use "heen" or "hin" in Flemish.

groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Morphology

Ingmar makes an interesting comment about the minimal effect of redundant
"small" words on comprehension but it wasn't quite to the point. Just to
clarify, I was trying to understand how one would make sense of
"rünnertobrennen" if one interpreted "rünner" as being like Du "eronder",
which would mean "under it/them" or "among them" as opposed to German
"herunter". A more relevant question, therefore, is what happens to
intelligibility if one switches "in" and "on" or miswrites
"far/fore/for/four".

BTW, I have just read the following in Umberto Eco's _Mouse or Rat?
Translation as Negotiation_. Bear in mind that it was written by a man who
prides himself on his command on English and is writing about very subtle
linguistic issues. Referring to to Italian translations of T S Eliot's
couplet "In the room the women come and go/Talking of Michelangelo." he says
the "Italian translations (both by Luigi Berti and Roberti Sanesi)". He
doesn't mean what he says, that the two Italians jointly made two
translations and got the same answer too times, but the "two Italian
translations (by Luigi Berti and Roberti Sanesi)". I suspect "both" may be a
problem for Romance speakers. (Added to these he doesn't understand who
"Michelangelo" is normally pronounced by and English speaker, so so much for
Eco .. Eco .. Eco.)

BTW2 it's surprising to notice a curious uncommon unidiomatic use twice
within 24 hours. In the song "With a song in my heart" is the line: "Can I
help but rejoice?" In the "Columbo" episode I saw yesterday ("Etude in
Black", Season 2, Ep 1, Sep 1972 if you care) the baddie says "Don't
hesitate but to call me." The normal idiom in UK Eng is "I can't help but
rejoice", ie "but" follows a negative in a declarative sense. From that
point of view the "Columbo" example may be seen as hypercorrection, because
in my English "but" hear is just wrong and I have never to my knowledge
heard this version of this very common phrase in US English before.

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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