LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.15 (05) [E/F]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.14 (06) [D/E]

Dear John,

Subject: Etymology

> I can throw all my etymological dictionaries away then!

Yesss!

> But before I do
> here's De Vries on "schaats". After dismissing the conventional
explanation
> that it is from Northern French "echasse" (stilt) 'cos it's hard to see
how
> the word got transferred from one thing to the other the entry continues:
> "Nu is er een eng. _skate_, dat uit het fri. [fries?] kan zijn
overgenomen.
> Men zou van een woord voor 'lang smal stuk hout' kunnen uitgaan: vgl. on.
> _skata_ 'vleet d.i. vis met lange, smalle staart', nnoorw. _skate_
'boomstam
> zonder takken'."
>
> So De Vries thinks E "skate" is from Frisian (unfortunately "fri." is one
of
> the abbreviations used but not elucidated) and also that the basic meaning
> is "long thin thing" and the flatfish is so-called because it has a long,
> thin tail. It looks as though De Vries has simply confused "skate" with
> "stake", because there is a Nor word "stake" meaning "pole/stake/pale"
which
> fits his definition reasonably well. But then ...

I forget the technical term, but there is one for the transposition of
consonants in a word. The Hebrew 'Hitpael' construction converts 'gibbour' -
(hero) to 'hitgaber' - (to strive heroically). But then it hits 's' or 'z',
& you get 'histaper' - (to be shorn) from 'sapar' - Shears. AS uses the word
'ascian' - (ask) but accepts 'acsian' - (ask). this still happens in ME:
Like the defenition of 'Virgin Timber? - Never been axed!
It is also a common slip of the tongue. Could this 'skate' - 'stake' morph
be another such?

> But then the magpies turn up (in the plural because one is unlucky!).
> "Skate" is a dialect word in Nor for "magpie" (cf Dan "skade", Sw "skata")
> and magpies also have long tails! And "skate" has some connexion (which I
> haven't quite worked out) with dry spruce trees without branches (or
> something like that - my Nor dictionary seems to be a bit too basic).

I admire your reach nonetheless. However all these cognates, if cognates
they be, & I wouldn't necessarily domp 'echasse' either, point to a common
ancestor in an ancestral tongue. By the way, wooden ice skates don't work.
You need something with a high conductivity, or the when the bearing surface
in contact with the water-skin releases pressure without breaking contact,
it refreezes (quite quickly) - bang - over you go. The armchair
archaeologists might try it with bone skates. I think the same will apply.

> So I think "skate" comes from people (maybe those Danes in Beowulf?) in
> black clothes skating down long thin canals against a white winter
> background. In fact I'm convinced of it.

Ha!

Yrs,
Mark

---------

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.14 (06) [D/E]

> From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: ETYMOLOGY
>
> Mark Dreyer wrote re "skate":
>
> "I rather think the term goes back to the ancestor of all these tongues. I
> wager it was a skill practiced long before Teutons came to Britain, & they
> brought it & the word (& the pronunciation) for it with them."
>
> I can throw all my etymological dictionaries away then! But before I do
> here's De Vries on "schaats". After dismissing the conventional
explanation
> that it is from Northern French "echasse" (stilt) 'cos it's hard to see
how
> the word got transferred from one thing to the other the entry continues:
> "Nu is er een eng. _skate_, dat uit het fri. [fries?] kan zijn
overgenomen.
> Men zou van een woord voor 'lang smal stuk hout' kunnen uitgaan: vgl. on.
> _skata_ 'vleet d.i. vis met lange, smalle staart', nnoorw. _skate_
'boomstam
> zonder takken'."
>
> So De Vries thinks E "skate" is from Frisian (unfortunately "fri." is one
of
> the abbreviations used but not elucidated) and also that the basic meaning
> is "long thin thing" and the flatfish is so-called because it has a long,
> thin tail. It looks as though De Vries has simply confused "skate" with
> "stake", because there is a Nor word "stake" meaning "pole/stake/pale"
which
> fits his definition reasonably well. But then ...

It liket my net sa wierskynlik dat it út it Frysk komme soe, om't it Frysk
dit wurd net brûkt! "skates" yn it Westerlauwersk Frysk is "redens" (iental
"reed", soe'k seze, mar dit komt net faak foar).
Faaks komt dit út in âlder stadium fan it Frysk ? Tsjintwurdich soe *skaats
as in ôfgryslik hollannisme sjoen wurde (ik hew it wol sezen heard,  mar de
grize giet jin dan oer de grauwe...).

Groetnis

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

By the way, in most Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects of Germany, a skate
(not the fish!) is a _strydschou_ (<Striedschoh>), literally a "striding
shoe," I believe.

In some dialects it's _schörken_ or _schöörken_ (<Schöörken> [S9:3`kN]).

Are there any relatives of these in other Lowlands varieties?

A nickname for 'skate' (and LS *loves* nicknames) is _d'n smid syn ysern
peyrd_ (<den Smitt sien iesern Peerd>), literally "the smith's iron horse."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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