LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.16 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

I can't work out whether Mark Dreyer is presenting his own "thesis" about
Frisians and King Alfred's navy or is recounting what the Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle says. He actually seems to be saying two different things. I have
searched two online versions of the AS Chronicle and all I can find are
statements that
a) there were Frisian pirates at some point
b) later on dead Frisians are listed with the English dead
c) Alfred designed ships that were bigger than anyone else's
d) a dead Frisian called "Ebb" is mentioned.

What am I doing wrong that I can't find what Mark assures us is there?

I will keep my views on communication problems in shipbuilding and ship
operation to myself until I find out if they are relevant.

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.14 (10) [E]

Dear John

Subject: Language varieties

> Mark said: "What about those phrases you wanted me to translate (without
> peeking)?"

> We were doing a little experiment on the mutual intelligibility of
languages
> and I gave him some phrases in an unspecified language (actually Frisian,
as
> previously described). They were chosen so that at least one word in each
> wasn't an obvious match (to me) in Eng or Du. His interpretation and the
> translation given in the source text follow:
>
> > Heit geit nei syn wurk.
> (My Senior) goes to his work / gets to work. (can 'heit' also be 'Father?)
> Father goes to his work.
>
> > Dou stiest njonken my. / You stand beside/against me. You stand next to
> me.
>
> > Hoe stiet it libben? / How's Life? / How are you.
>
> > De gripe leit yn it heafek.
> The allergy is in the head.
> The fork is in the hay in the barn. Probably not the most accurate
> rendering: "hay store" seems better for "heafek". (Du: De greep ligt in
het
> hooivak.)
>
> > It wie syn iennichste hynder. (Clue: "iennich"= Du "enig") / It is his
> only chicken. / It was his only horse.
>
> > It famke wie slim siik. / It appears to be a grave illness. / The girl
was
> very ill.

A sobering study of the limits of translingual communication. Mind you,
perhaps I am a poor study, & anyway, our are two living tongues sundered
about an age-&-a-half. I suppose I should be grateful I cought what I did!

Yrs,
Mark

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.14 (10) [E]

Dear Henry

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

> >>"Well, in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Fries were recruited to man King
> >>Alfred's Navy, since they were, unlike the English of that time, seamen.

(See my closing note)

> >>Where is this from? Is "they spoke a dialect mutually intelligable to
the
> >>English" a contemporary observation? I can only find a reference in 897
to
> >>the fact that Alfred designed ships unlike Frisian and Danish ones.

You riffled through your 'AS Chronicles', right?
I only touch on this point because I thought the issue was settled (not in
'L-Lowlands', but by the scholars, some time ago).

> Furthermore, it's roughly 400 years after the first arrival of Angles,
> Saxons and Jutes in Britain. So this still doesn't prove that Frisians
> were among the settlers

Conceded, to my profound irritation!

> nor that at that time there was any people
> named Frisians.

No, & I allow I should have been clearer here. There certainly were Fries in
`Alfred's time, & this is why I quoted that passage. Further on the subject,
from the 'Parker' AS Chronicle, p 90, "But, when the tide had ebbed many
furlongs from the ships, the Danes went from their three ships to the other
three that were stranded on their side, & then there they fought. There were
slain Lucamon, the King's reeve, & Wulfheard, the Frisian, & Aebbe the
Frisian, & Aethelhere the Frisian, & Aethelfrith of the King's household,
totalling sixty-two killed of English & Frisians, & one-hundred-&-Twenty of
the Danes." Page 91 (ME trans. & ed. G N Garmonsway, 'The Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle' Everyman , 1972.

Even earlier, they are also mentioned in the poem 'Widsith', in the
catalogue of Germanic Kings: "Finn Folcwalding the Frisian Kin," line 27, I
think, page 38 (ME trans. Michael Alexander, 'The Earliest English Poems'
Penguin Classics, 2nd Edition,1977.

To quote from the Author's introduction, "The hundred & forty-two verses of
'Widsith' are acknowledged to be the oldest in the English language, & form
the earliest production in verse of any Germanic people." Himself quoting
Chambers, he continues, " "In Widsith we have a catalogue of some seventy
tribes, & of sixty-nine heroes, many of whom can be proved to have existed
in the third, fourth & fifth centuries of our era, & the latest of whom
belong to the sixth century." "

Quoting from the Author again, "At the risk of stating the obvious, one must
repeat that the man or men who composed this poem, recently arrived from
what used to be called Schleswig-Holstein, did not consider himself or
themselves 'English'; & would certainly not have thought of 'the Continent'
as foreign'." Ibid, p 34.

Yrs,
Mark

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