LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.18 (04) [A/D/E]

Sat Sep 18 16:52:20 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.16 (04) [A/E/F]

> From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.15 (05) [E/F]
>
> Beste Henno
>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.14 (06) [D/E]
[..]

> > > "Nu is er een eng. _skate_, dat uit het fri. [fries?] kan zijn
> > overgenomen.
>
> > > So De Vries thinks E "skate" is from Frisian (unfortunately "fri." is
> one
> > > of the abbreviations used but not elucidated) and also that the basic
> > > meaning is "long thin thing" and the flatfish is so-called because it
> has
> > > a long, thin tail. It looks as though De Vries has simply confused
> > > "skate" with "stake", because there is a Nor word "stake" meaning
> > > "pole/stake/pale" which fits his definition reasonably well. But then
> ...
>
> > It liket my net sa wierskynlik dat it út it Frysk komme soe, om't it
Frysk
> > dit wurd net brûkt! "skates" yn it Westerlauwersk Frysk is "redens"
> (iental
> > "reed", soe'k seze, mar dit komt net faak foar).
> > Faaks komt dit út in âlder stadium fan it Frysk ? Tsjintwurdich soe
> *skaats
> > as in ôfgryslik hollannisme sjoen wurde (ik hew it wol sezen heard,  mar
> de
> > grize giet jin dan oer de grauwe...).
>
> Ek hoop, Henno, ek snap u mening , en dat u my Taal volg so goed oftwel
> beter as ek uwe. Het ek dit reg dat julle die woord 'skaats' as 'n
> 'Hollandisme ' ervaar? En dat in die Frysk die woord 'redens' = 'skaats'
in
> Afrikaans?
>
[in besykjen om Afrikaans te skriuwen, dy't sûnder mis grôtfol mei flaters
sit; yn't foar myn eksuzes derfoar...]
Inderdaad, die woord "skaats" staan nie in die Friese woordboeke nie, maar
dit word wel (maar nie so vaak nie) gesê. Die goede woord is "reed"
(meervoud: redens) en die werkwoord dat daarby hoor is "reedride". As
"skaats" al gesê word ervaar ek dat as hollandisme.
Die woord "reed" is afgelei van "ride"/ry denk ek.

Groetnis,

Henno

> Groetnis,
> Mark

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

Peter asked about the origin of "can". According to Onions (and so
presumably the OED) "canne" is found only once in OE, as a gloss, so it's
hard to say anything about it. The abominable Bryson says the Romans "left
barely five words" in Britain but true to form doesn't say what they are.
But the Anglo-Saxon invaders/Gastarbeiter/mercenaries brought a lot of Latin
words with them. Trouble is there's no agreement i=on exactly where
(etymologically) "can" (reimported later) came from.

I hope I don't insult anyone by saying that a "gloss" in the sense used here
is a word written above or below another to explain its meaning. I once had
an Open University tutor who thought that when I talked about "glossing" a
Victorian text I meant "putting a gloss on it", ie making it seem better
than it was. I traded him in for someone else.

Dan: thanks for the expert opinion. You wrote: "In Austrian Standard German
the <ü> in "hübsch" would actually be pronounced even closer, fronted and
most likely longer than in German Standard German." Actually I probably did
it that way myself which makes the whole thing odder. Of course it was me
who used the word and the incident occurred in the workplace. Does your
"Bundesdeutsch" mean the same as "Binnendeutsch" in Germany?

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.17 (01) [A/E]

> The word canne could
> be latinised from the Greek and introduced to local British Celtic tribes
by
> Roman occupation who then passed it on to the new "Saxon" arrivals. OR it
> could have been brought into Frisian/Saxon lingua a lot earlier via Roman
> settlements on the continent. Is this a stupid thought?
> Cheers
> Peter Snepvangers

Hei Peter and John, hei allemwol.

For me too it seems plausible that 'canister' is Englishised, Latinised
Greek maybe through science and gas canisters.
The word 'canne' however to me doesn't seem a loanword from the Roman nor
Greek

In Dutch a 'kan' denotes a container (a can-tainer?) of fluids, and a 'kom'
the smaller bowls from wich one eats soupe, ..., irrespective of the
material of wich it's made.

The verb 'kunnen" (being able to) is irregular in Dutch (kon- gekund /
ik,jij, hij kan), and is best translated as 'being able to'.(e.g. ik kan
zwemmen, ik kan komen).The regular verb 'kennen' (kende-gekend),"to know
(someone)" is mostly used in relation with people while the irr.
'weten-wist-geweten' (cfr gr. oida) "to know (something)" is rather used in
combination with learned knowledge.

Since food containers are invented millenia ago, and frequently used ever
since, 'can/kanne/kanna' doesn't have to be a loanword at all, but could be
part of  the IE vocabulary (like 'bee'). Though 'a can' is differently used
in Canada, England, ... it's not a loan (from English) and refers in
different groups to a different part of the broad range of (food)
containers. Similarities between say English and Greek could result from the
same proces in which the meaning of the same IE word 'kanna' is slightly
altered with the appearance of new types of food containers. For the verb
'to can/kennen' grossly goes the same since knowledge and social behavior
also have changed drasticly.

If 'a can' and 'to can' are cognate at all, in very ancient times some
food(/fluid) containing objects and knowledge and capabilities had to be
united in one thing or person. Could that be a woman, 'gyne' in Greek (knaai
in Dutch), who can bear childeren (in a fluid)(kin-der, kunne in Dutch),
who handels the 'cans', who learn their childeren what they can and what
they can't, and collect more knowledge (kennis) by living longer?

 koffiekan, theekan, waterkan
de pastoor kan ook, maar die mag niet (NLimb. joke)

Groeten,
Jo Thys

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.15 (05) [E/F]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

...........................
In some dialects it's _schörken_ or _schöörken_
(<Schöörken>
[S9:3`kN]).

Are there any relatives of these in other Lowlands varieties?

.................

Reinhard,

Ligt het in je macht nog wat aardige dingen te zeggen over dit aardige
woord?

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Theo vroeg (hierboven) naar het Noordnedersaksische ("Nederduitse") woord
_schörken_ or _schöörken_ (<Schöörken> [S9:3`kN]) 'schaats(en)'.

Beste Theo, ik ben niet zeker, maar ik neem aan dat het een verkleind
afleiding (met umlaut) van _schaar is_, specifiek het _schaar_ dat bedoelt
'lemmet (van een ploeg)', dus '(ploeg)schaar'.

Verkleinwoorden heeft _-ken_ of _-(t)je_.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron

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