LL-L "Phonology" 2004.09.27 (01) [E]

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.09.26 (05) [D/E]

Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl> wrote:
>
> Sorry John, but intervocal -w- is really not pronounced the same as
initial
> w- in Dutch.
 >
Some people do, some people don't. I'm not sure what I do myself, I
believe I vary, with a tendency to pronounce it as initial w.

> I think intervocal  -w-  preserved in Dutch is the original
> situation here, because Latin has intervocal v in stems like nov-
> (new/nine), nev- (snow), etc where Dutch (and English) have -w-, High
German
> has zero and some Lower Saxon has -gh-.

> In Dutch Lower Saxon dialects we always find zero in stead of -uw-,
> never -g-: nij, nije (new), snei, sneien (snow), lij, lijte (lee),
schreien
> (scream/cry).
 >
I say "niej" (new), "sniejn" (sneeuwen) (using Dutch spelling, to
prevent confusion).

> In Dutch Lower Saxon, -uw- in blauwe is preserved.
 >
I hardly pronounce a w in blauwe(n), I seem to go from au directly to e.

regards,
Henry

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar wrote:
>Sorry John, but intervocal -w- is really not pronounced the same as initial
w- in Dutch. leeuwen  ["le:w@] , nieuwe  ["niw@], schuwe  ["sxyw@], with [w]
like in English, exactly like final -w  in leeuw [le:w], nieuw [niw] and
schuw [sxyw], but unlike initial w- wie [vi] = who, wereld ["ve:r at lt] =
world, wraak [vra:k] = revenge.<

Thanks. Problem for me is I was taught something different. We used William
Z Shetter's "Introduction to Dutch" published by Martinus Nijhoff and he
says in relation to the "w" sound and "nieuw": 'Note that when "w" begins a
syllable (nieu-we), it is pronounced like "w" in "wat". "Begins a syllable"
and "intervocalic" are, of course, logically different concepts. Anyway, my
first Dutch teacher drew our attention to this and I don't recall any of the
others ever contradicting it. The specific examples I gave were from B C
Donaldson's "Dutch: A Linguistic History of Holland and Belgium" in which he
writes the pronunciations as [niuw@], [sXyw@] and [le.uw at n] where @ = schwa.
I took it that he was writing a Dutch "w" but maybe not.

To get some direct experience I listened to some pronunciations on a
Stanford U website. For "leeuwen" I heard an Eng "w". For "nieuwe" I thought
I caught a very slight Dutch "w". For "kieuwen" I heard a distinct Eng "v".
All these by the same speaker.

Who can square the circle for me?

John Feather CS johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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