LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]

Wed Apr 13 14:30:09 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]

"Yonder", from OE geond, is related to German "jener", which I gather is
considered a bit old-fashioned in Germany these days.

Paul

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From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Wat hierdie en daardie betref, ek het iets in ``Wording en ontwikkeling
van Afrikaans" deur J. du P. Scholtz gekry wat dalk vir julle interessant
is.  Ek kon nie Hahn se oorspronklikke e-pos kry nie, ek hoop ek herhaal
nie wat hy daar gese^ het nie.  Ek haal aan:

Die teenstellende aanwysende voornaamwoorde hierdie en daardie is uit geen
Kaapse bron van voor 1850 opgeteken nie, wat egter nie beteken dat die
vorme eers in die 19de eeu in Afrikaans ontstaan het nie.  Die aanwysende
voornaamwoorde die' het hom net deur sterker aksent van die bepaalde
lidwoord die onderskei, en met die verdwyning van deze is die geleentheid
vergroot vir die ontwikkeling en verspreiding van nuwe teenstellende
aanwaysende voornaamwoorde.  Die neiging tot nadurlikheid en oormatige
aanwysing, wat 'n kenmerk van die vroee" Kaapse taalgebruik was, kon die
ontstaan van vorme soos hierdie en daardie in die hand werk.  Dit is
moontlik dat die aanloop tot die Afrikaanse formasies in die 17de-eeuse
Hollands moet gesoek word.  In die huidige Hollandse volkstaal is
konstruksies bekend wat na aan die Afrikaans staan (bv. "Hier die frome
is-ter dak en muur van de kerk"). en vergelykbare konstruksies kom ook al
in die 17de eeu voor (bv. "Hier de kopster, Neel slimmongs" - uit
Bredero).  Daar is trouens ook gewys op konstruksies uit 18de eeuse Duits
wat byna identiek met die Afrikaans is ("Dort der Holunderstrauch verbrigt
mich ihm" - uit Schiller).  Onafhanklike ontstaan van hierdie en daardie
deur verskuiwing in sinaktiese geleding van sinne soos "Sien jy daar die
man met die groen hoed?" is egter ook goed denkbaar.  Van vreemde
oorsprong, of selfs tipies Afrikaans, is die konstruksies in elk geval
nie, want hierdie en daardie is as (oormatig) aanduidende vorme ook in 'n
Brabantse dialek aangewys.

Beste,
Darrin Speegle

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

No, <yonder> is of course not directly related to hierdie or daardie,
but to Dutch <ginder/daarginds> over there, <ginds> (adject) yonder,
Dutch LS <gunter> idem. Dutch has also relatives: degene <the one> = de +
gene, hetgeen <the one> (neutr) = het + geen.

But there are some words related to <hier>: Dutch <heden>, German Heute =
today (formal/archaic); <huidig> = present, today's. <her en der> here and
there. German: heurig = this year's.
Related to <daar>: dergelijk/diergelijk = similar, the like, or would those
be conjugated forms of articles <de> and <die>? And again <her en der>.

Ingmar

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]
>
>> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
>> searching
>> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
>> not
>> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)
>
>Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
>almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
>but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
>least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?
>
>Darrin.
>
>I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder") has got nothing to do with the
>"hierdie/daardie" issue. "Yonder/ginder" is a derivation of the
>demonstrative stem which still can be found in German: "jen-" (jener, jene,
>jenes). The [d] seems to be original [if I may believe the etymological
>dictionaries]. If not it could be epenthetic. Either hypothesis is better
>than the asssumption that the d in "yonder/ginder" derives from
>"there/daar". We don't say "yonther" after all.
>
>Hans den Besten
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Hans (above):
>
>> I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder")
>
>Low Saxon has _gÃ¼nt_ ~ _gunt_ (> _gÃ¼ntsyds_ ~ _guntsyds_).
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
>From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>>What about "yonder"? <
>
>OED:   yonder: over there : corresponds to Old Saxon  gendra ( adj)  West
>Frisian ginder ( adj) = on this side    Middle Dutch  ghinder, gunder
>(Dutch ginder)  Gothic jaindre.
>
>yon = Old English  geon   correspondsa with variation of vowels to OFris
>jen(a)   MLG  gene   MDu  ghens   OHG  jener   Goth   jains = that
>
>There is a parallel series of forms without the initial consonant: OHG ener
> ON enn, inn  Oslav  onu  Sanskrit  ana = this one
>
>It actually doesn't explain the -der  suffix
>
>Heather

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