LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

Tue Apr 19 00:09:43 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (05) [E/LS]

Leeve Reinhard un'Gary,

Ji schreeven:

> LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'Hündin, E: 'bitch'.

> Oh, man, Jonny!  Dat is maal wedder 'n radel!

un' Gary:

> Could this be at all related somewhat obscurely to Middle Saxon 'tike'
> also
> meaning bitch coming from Germanic tikô?

Weest bedankt föör Jaun Möh, ook wenn mi dat al ne sou recht wiider holpen
hett. Schiint jo een oosig Woord tou ween, wat mi door inne Mööt komen is.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (01) [E]

Daag, Arend,

Du schreevst (according to "Tiff"):

> Bi'j oonz in Drenthe kent wi'j dat woord as Teef, Teve.
> Name van een vrouwgieshond. Maor 't wurdt ok as schimpwoord veur sommigen
> van 't vrouwelijk geslacht bruukt.
>
> In mien Nederlaans etymologisch woordenboek stiet 't as volgt.
> Teef, (Middelnederlaans) 1240 tẽue. (Middelnederduuts) 1227 tēve.
> (Oldengels) tife.
>
Wees bedankt! Dat het holpen.

> (Hoogduutsdialect) ziwwe. (Noordfries) teww.
Un' hier hevvt wi denen Betog funnen to dat Woord HG: 'Zippe', ook bruukt
för wiivlich' Deeren, as Kanin, Teeg, Schoopen [heet ook 'Jitten',hier]....

Best' Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners, Reinhard,
(English below)

vandoog nu obers 'n Woord, door weet wi allerhand van, man- an dennen Innen
sitt dor ook weller 'n lütten Düvel binnen.

LS: *Tofalsteen*, ook *Tafelsteen*,  HG:'Würfel', E: 'dice'.

In de etymoloogschen Wöörbökers finn ick:

Old Saxon: 'tafalsteen' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
Old Frisian: 'tofalla', HG:'zufallen', E:'fall to...',;
Old English: 'tabele', HG: 'Brettspiel', E:'board game';
Old High German: 'zabalstein' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
Old High German: 'zabalon' HG: 'zappeln,', E: 'to struggle, wriggle'.

Waard dat in anner Lowlann'sche Sprooken ook sou bruukt?
Welk nedderdüütsche Etymologen meent, dat müss 'Tafelsteen' schreeven
waar'n, wieldes dat Woord van lat. 'tabula' herkeem.
Ick denk, 'Tofal[l]steen' weer beter; hangt mit dennen 'Tofall', HG:
'Zufall', E: 'accident','chance' tohaup.
Or müss dat an dennen Innen 'Zappelsteen' ween?

Sou- nu ist 't naug; anners waard door noch 'n 'Sabbelsteen'
('gossip-stone')van! ;-)

***

Dear Lowlanders, Reinhard,

about my today's word we know a lot- but a little devil could have hidden
inside, too.

LS: *Tofalsteen*, ook *Tafelsteen*,  HG:'Würfel', E: 'dice'.

In the etymological dictionaries I find:

Old Saxon: 'tafalsteen' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
Old Frisian: 'tofalla', HG:'zufallen', E:'fall to...';
Old English: 'tabele', HG: 'Brettspiel', E:'board game';
Old High German: 'zabalstein' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
Old High German: 'zabalon' HG: 'zappeln,', E: 'to struggle, wriggle'.

Is it used and known in other Lowlandic-languages?
Some Low-Saxon etymologists think, it should be written 'Tafelsteen',
because it's related to lat. 'tabula'.
I'd prefer 'Tofal[l]steen', because I guess it to be cognate with 'Tofall',
HG: 'Zufall', E: 'accident','chance'.
Or should 'Zappelsteen' be best at the end?

I have to stop now- otherwise it could become a 'Sabbelsteen'
('gossip-stone') at last! ;-)

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]

Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I have only heard it in
two words:  hillock and bullock. In hillock, it sounds like a diminutive. A
bullock is a baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?
Ben

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

[English below]

Tja, leyve Jonny. Dayt my leyd, dat ik Dyn seypen-blaas' tou 't barsten
bringen mut.  Dat is 'n val vun _schön wär's_.  In 't Old-Sassische is dat
_tāfalstên_.  _Tāfla_ beduydt in dey spraak nich "disch" (dat is _biod_ or
_disk_); dat beduydt _speelbreed_ or _wörpel-breed_, un dat gayt schynt up
Latynsch _tabula_ trüg.  'n Wörpel al-gemeyn is in 't Old-Sassische _wurpil_
(mit _werp_ 'Wurf' verwandt).  'n Wörpel-speler is 'n _tāflėri_.

Sorry I had to burst our Jonny's bubble. Old Saxon _tāfalstên_ 'dice'
(containing the word for 'stone') has nothing to do with "accident" or
"coincident" (Modern Low Saxon _tou-val_).  It comes from _tāfla_ (< Latin
_tabula_), which in Old Saxon does not mean 'table' (which would be _biod_
or _disk_) but 'game board'. A dice player is a _tāflėri_ ("tabler"), and
'dice' generally is _wurpil_ (related to the verb for 'cast', cf. German
_Wurf_ and Old English _weorp_ 'throw', 'cast' [nominal]); cf. Modern Low
Saxon _wörpel_ and Modern German _Würfel_.

And the plot thickens:

Old English has _tæfl_ meaning both 'dice' and 'game of dice'.  If you are
good and quick at throwing dice you are _hrædtæfle_ in Old English, from
_hræd_ 'in a hurry'.

I don't know what the Old Saxon word for 'accident' or 'coincident' is.
Does anyone else?

The Old Saxon word for 'to kick', 'to jiggle', etc. (German _zappeln_) is
_spartalōn_, hence the ancestor of Modern Low Saxon _sparteln_ ~ _spatteln_
~ _spaddeln_ with the same meaning, perhaps related to Old English
_spearnlian_ ~ _spréawlian_ with the same meaning.

Another interesting Old Saxon word: _ālmėri_ ("all sea") 'Zuiderzee'.  What
is it in Old Low Franconian and Old Frisian?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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