LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (02) [E]

Thu Apr 21 15:16:17 UTC 2005

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (05) [E/LS]

I almost pushed the reply button as soon as I read Ian Pollock's question
about whether other (other than Russian that is) Slavic languages have a
"mute"-based word for the name of the country as well, or, like Russian, use
a variation on Германия.

However, I have long ago learned to scroll down to the bottom of the message
where Reinhard/Ron gives his 2-cents worth ... because he usually has the
answer ...  (^o^).

And this time, again, he did as well:

Ukrainian: Германiя ~ Німеччина (both)
Belarusian: Нямеччына
Polish: Niemcy
Czech: Německa
Upper Sorbian: Němska ~ Němskeje

One correction: unless R/R is giving a dialect form I'm not aware of, Czech
is Německo, a neuter, not a feminine -- unlike ALL the others, which are
feminines). And Slovak, (oh, let's NOT forget Slovak) is Nemecko ... without
the háček over the first "e". Also note that the Polish is a bit of an
oddball-out: it is a plural; literalyl: "The Germans"; all the others are
singulars.

I could leave it at that (well, someone else might could, _I_ can't), but I
WAS all set to answer, so I will anyway ... and help give an even MORE
complete picture. So we can add:

Croatian: Njemčaka
Serbian: Немчака
Bosnian: ... okay, let's not fool anyone; on purely linguistic grounds,
Bosnian + Croatian + Serbian is REALLY ONE language. (Just joking (half-way
anyway); I say that because, Slav(ic)ist though I am, I can't say I know
exactly what form the Bosnians use (like good art, I know it when I see it),
though I imagine the Muslim Bosnians and the Orthodox Bosnians and the
Croat(ian) Bosnians MAY use different orthographic forms ... JUST to be
different.)
Slovene: Nemčija
Macedonian: Германиjа
and Bulgarian: Германия
(I am unaware of ever having run across an Old Bulgarian/Old Church
Slav(on)ic reference to Germany; a quick search (though not for all possible
spelling variations) of my computerized OB/OCS texts .. maybe 15 or so of
the "major" ones -- supports this.)

So, in Slavdom at least, Russian (and Bulgarian + Macedonian) is (are) the
odd man (men) out: Germans ARE mute (and, at least one of my Francophile
Australian friends here would add, should remain so! (sic?)). Interestingly
enough, it is the countries CLOSEST to Germandom that refer to the country
as Mute-dom, while those furthest away use the a name based on "German". One
might have expected the opposite if unfamiliarity with the language ("speaks
a strange language" = "mute") motivated the choice (think of all the Czechs
and Slovenes who speak German fluently!).

And, halfway around the world (more or less) Dakota/Lakhota refer to the
Germans as iyašiča (spellings vary), which derives from iya "to speak"  and
šiča "bad, ugly".

(Many other N American Native languages (from Dine Bizaad (Navajo) to
Blackfoot) refer to Germans as "pointy/metal hats" ... which always reminds
me of the (Japanese, but also I believe native German) Sign Language sign:
fist with index finger extended upward, placed at the center of the forhead,
a clear, iconic reference to WWI German helmets.) Tsalagi (Cherokee), of
which I have a smidge of blood -- though far too little to put me on the
tribal roles, is the only NAm language I am aware of which uses the German
form: Advji (v= schwa) = a- + dvji < Deutsch, and interestingly enough,
refering to Dutch as well as German. (The initial a- is a noun prefix
attached to human nouns -- optionally for some singulars, though
obligatorily, I believe, in the plural.)

Mike Morgan

KCUFS

P.S.
Oh, and R/R adds that:

> So Russian makes a difference between the ethnicity/language and the
> country: adjectival "German": немецкий _nemeckij_ (ethnic/linguistic) vs
> германский _germanskij_ (pertaining to the country).  I've always
> preferred
> this from a diversity point of view.

Германский also refers, linguistically, to German-ic rather than merely
German. Thus, from the Russian point of view, I speak a германский language
(English), though not a немецкий one (unless יידש counts, and to Russians it
DOESN'T). (One might add that, while I haven't met a Germanic language I
didn't like, German leaves me -- appologies to any speakers out there -- a
bit cold. Which is why the above is, a may forever remain, true.)

MWM

P.P.S.

And, while we are on the topic of names, I always find it interesting (laugh
inside?) when I write my nationality on the myriad of bureaucratic forms
required here in Japan: 米国 /beikoku/, literally "rice country" -- ironic
considering import duties levied against foreign rice that are perhaps 10
times higher than any other import duties and make rice from "rice country"
here scarcer than hen's teeth (and my beloved indica rice at least 10-times
more expensive here than it would be in Pittsburgh, PA ... though the latter
is undoubtably MUCH further away from the source). I am always tempted to
use the form used in all (?) the other conutries using "kanji": 美国 Mandarin
/měi guó/, Korean /mi-kuk/, and Việtnamese 美 /Mỹ/ "beautiful country".
And, it IS a beautiful country, at least physically, if not always
spiritually. ... Oh, and to make "mute" Germans feel better, the Chinese
charatcer used phonetically in the name of your country, actually means
"virtuous, etc". Again, an ideal we don't always live up to.

P.P.P.S.

And congrats to Bavaria on the new Pope!

----------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.16 (03) [E]

The construction Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de> refers to in Polish is
the common colloquial form in Russian as well, complete with the German
штука 'item'. So, where the literary standard would recommend "5 яблок"
/p'at' jablok/ "five apples", colloquially we often find "5 штук яблок"
"five items of apples". A quick Google search of the internet for "X штук
яблок" (where X = a number > 4, for grammatical reasons) turned up 50 hits
(mostly recipes ... apple pie?).

And an equally quick Google search for "X sztuk jabłek" (the equivalent
Polish form) gave 7 hits. (Though I can't say anything about the
geographic/dialect distribution of the sztuk construction within Polish and
within Poland. I DO remember a friend who spent a while in Kraków (NOT in
the West) using the construction; he was, however, a non-native speaker, ...
and he was exposed to Warszawian Polish in grad school and also at least
passively as a child (his father was an emigre), and I have no idea what
part of Poland THAT Polish came from. Plus, he hung out a lot with a couple
of us Russian speakers in grad school.

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

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