LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]

Fri Apr 29 16:50:41 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10) [E]

Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
"Well, Leicester achly. Bit more saath, burra doont sahnd too diffrent. Live
in Notts nah."

Yeah, ah yan terd much o the wey Lester foewk tok an wot wods yeh use
(gierrus a few o yuh special wods), but its olweys saans veri cloews tee
Notts... aye yerd a bloewk frem Nothampton on thuh news wen nah wo rova in
Derbyshuh thuh uther weegk en nah thot even nee saandit well lak Notnum, so
wah wonder raa saath East Midlans tok achli goews. Raan the noth wes tay
Derbyshuh it gets sol Manky lak, an on a line runnin thro the middle ay
Notnumshuh it gets ol Yokshuh lak. Ah olwyes reckon East Midlans is thuh
fost tay thuh nothun dialecks ay English (or thuh las tay um, which yuh
prefer).

David Clarke wrote:
"Go on - I bet your mother didn't talk to you like that."

You're right. My mother's Cornish.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criostóir.

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Reinhard, I'm intrigued again by your (Hamburg) Missingsch, particularly
what is so Low Saxon about it? It looks very High German at first sight,
M Meejchsubbe vs LS melksup etc.
<Schogolådesubbe> reminds me of the discussion we had before about voicing
stops in Danish, where I stated they could be originally from Northern Low
Saxon. Is this voicing of voiceless intervocal stops a rule in Hamburg
Missingsch? Or in the local Low Saxon too?

Ingmar

> R. F. Hahn :
>
>When I was a kid in Hamburg (and times were leaner then), we youngsters
>would regularly eat "milk soup" (German _Milchsuppe_, Missingsch
>Meejchsubbe_, Low Saxon _melksup_ <Melksupp>)for supper, all of them based
>on sweetened milk.  The most typical one was with semolina, sometimes with
>rice (and sugar and cinnamon), more times with oatmeal (G.
>_Haferflockensuppe_).  My favorite was what in Missingsch we called
>_Schogolådensubbe_ "chocolate soup," cocao added to the semolina type, I
>think.  We did not know the type you mentioned.  In the summertime, a
>special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
>Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the
open
>to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
>berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Ingmar!

I wrote:

> <Schogolådesubbe>

Which should have been <Schogolådnsubbe>.  Sorry.

Thanks for the question.

There is a lot that is Low Saxon about Missingsch, especially in grammar and
idiom, but there is a lot in phonology as well, including intonation, vowel
quality, and aspiration patterns.

Aspiration patterns is at the root of what you are asking.  The more
easterly North Saxon dialects (if not pretty much all of them), as well as
most northeastern dialects, do have aspiration (i.e., adding a puff of air)
of voiceless stops (like most German and English dialects and unlike most
Low Franconian varieties.)  However, the aspiration rules for Low Saxon are
different from those in Standard German and in most English dialects of
Britain, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand.  In fact, you can simplify
it in gegeral terms like this:

(1) Standard German aspirates like non-American English.
(2) Low Saxon and Missingsch aspirate like American English.

Type 1 aspirates all intervocalic voiceless stops.*
Type 2 aspirates all pre-vocalic stops in syllables with primary stress.

* though aspiration in syllables with non-primary stress is weaker than
aspiration in syllables with primary stress

So, aspiration in Type 2 is more restricted; e.g. (using [h] for spiration],

(1) English: tatter ['thæth3] (~ affr. ['tshætsh3]), paper ['phEIph3],
picket ['phIkh at t]
(1) German: Koppel ['khOph at l], Papier [pha'phi3`], tippeln ['thIph at ln]

(2) English: tatter ['thæt=r] (~ flap ['thæ4=r]), paper ['phEIp=r], picket
['phIk at t]
(2) N.Saxon: Koppel ['khOp=l]~['khOb=l], Papeer [pa'phEI3], tippeln
['thIp=ln]~['thIb=ln]
(2) Missingsch: Koppel ['khOp=l]~['khOb=l], Papier [pa'phi3], tippeln
['thIp=ln]~['thIb=ln]

In 2, intervocalic voicing ought to be seen as a further step, probably in
the wake of Germanization.  Even were intervocalic voicing has not taken
place in Missingsch the unaspirated stops are *perceived* and written as
voiced, because this pattern does exist in standard-focused German.  (By the
way, there are also non-northern German dialects with pattern 2.  Similarly,
in Britain there are English dialects with this pattern, also some with no
aspiration.)

Does this make it clearer?

I think of Low Saxon (and American, incl. Canadian) aspiration rules as a
stage between no aspiration (as in Low Franconian and in farwestern Low
Saxon, also as in Romance languages) on the one hand and full aspiration (as
in Standard German and Standard non-American English) on the other hand.

Ingmar, Lowlanders, sometime soon I will add my sound files, so you will be
able to hear what's going on there.

I much appreciate your interest, Ingmar.

Have a great weekend!

Reinhard/Ron

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