LL-L "Etymology" 2005.08.02 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 02.AUG.2005 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.08.01 (03) [E/German/Spanish]

Alright, an indication then, instead of a prove. It might be folk-
etymology (I don't know the proper E word for that), native *smooth and
*balto-slavonic *sme~tana etc melted together into Schmand (Schmant).

Ingmar

>Ingmar, you wrote above:
>
>> Spelling with final -d would be a prove for a Germanic heritage, from
>> *smanth or so, because in German and Low Saxon <th> as in *smanth is
>> always <d>.
>
>Whoa!  "Prove" looks like too strong a word here.  Words get respelled all
>the time, usually in the process of nativization, thus using native
>analogies.  In both German and Low Saxon _-and_ is way more common than
>_-ant_ in native words.  So, initial _s(ch)mant_ could have very well been
>changed to _s(ch)mand_.  Given the orthographic ambivalence we discussed,
>some sort of change must have been involved.

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From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.08.01 (03) [E/German/Spanish]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Tere, Mari!  Great to hear from you again.  You wrote (above):
>
> > In North Estonian dialects there is a well-known word "mant" meaning
> > 'cream' :)
>
> Interesting!  Don't you think it's a Low Saxon loan (one of a gezillion)?
> Deletion of initial /s/ before another consonant would be consistent with
> Finnic loan adaptation (at least in earlier times).  I can't find a 
> Finnish
> cognate, which may be another indicator.  Apparently, Finnish uses either
> Russian-loaned _smetana_ (a recent loan give the initial consonant 
> cluster)
> or native _vuolukerma_ (_kerma_ 'cream', another loan, assumedly a Swedish
> one, cf. Estonian _kreem_, beside _koor_ > _hapukoor_ 'sour cream').  Or 
> do
> you think it's an ancient Slavonic loan?

It sounds really as a LS loan, but n is palatalised, which could
possibly refer to "i" in the preform (but doesn't have to)?

> About Estonian _koor_: it's a very interesting Low Saxon loan in that it 
> has
> experienced a semantic shift.  In Low Saxon, _kaarn(e)_ (<Kaarn(e)> ~
> <Koorn(e)>) ~ _karn(e)_ (<Karn(e)>) denotes 'butter churn' (English 
> "churn"
> being related) and in extension 'butter vat'.
Do you think it is LS loan? This word sounds too common in estonian, we
have "koor" also on trees, on bread etc.

>  I assume it's related to
> words for 'mill', 'grinder', 'churn' e.g., Scots _kirn_ ~ kern_, Dutch
> _karn_, German (dial.) _Kirn_, Swedish _kvarn_ ~ _kärna_ (> Finnish
> _kirnu_), Danish _kværn_ ~ _kjærne_, Norwegian _kvern_, Icelandic _kvörn_,
> (Old English *_ci(e)rn_ >) _cyrin_.  So in Estonian the Germanic word for
> "churn" came to denote 'cream' and 'butter fat'.  Interesting among 
> numerous
> derivations: _koorekann_ (< LS _kan_ <Kann> 'can') 'cream pitcher',
> 'creamer', _koorepulber_ (< LS _pulver_?) 'powdered cream', '(coffee)
> creamer'.

Besides, we have common dialectal word "kirn", "koorekirn" (alike Finnish
kirnu).

But right now i'm going to fieldworks in Setumaa, away from internet :)

Mari Sarv

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hello again, Mari!

> > About Estonian _koor_: it's a very interesting Low Saxon loan in that it 
> > has
> > experienced a semantic shift.  In Low Saxon, _kaarn(e)_ (<Kaarn(e)> ~
> > <Koorn(e)>) ~ _karn(e)_ (<Karn(e)>) denotes 'butter churn' (English 
> > "churn"
> > being related) and in extension 'butter vat'.
> Do you think it is LS loan? This word sounds too common in estonian, we
> have "koor" also on trees, on bread etc.

Might it be possible that we are talking about three homophone words, one 
native and one a loan?  Hmm ... but maybe not, now that I come to think 
about it.  Besides 'cream', _koor_ also means 'crust', 'peal', 'skin', 
'rind', and also, as a loan, 'choir'.  The question is if the ideas of 
'skin' and 'cream' (rising to the top) are related.  Note that Finnish has 
_kuori_ for 'crust', 'peal', 'skin', 'rind', but does not use the same word 
for cream (which is the loan _kerma_ = Est. _kreema_).  Similar in Karelian 
(_kuori_), Veps (_kor'_) and Votic (_koori_ vs _slifka_ < Russian).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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