LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.08 (01) [E]
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Tue Aug 9 16:36:48 UTC 2005
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.08 (01) [E]
Ingmar,
This feature of changing "ng" to "nj" is even living in part of East
Flemish.
In the Waregem-area they pronounce "dingen" as "dei" where the ei is
pronounced extremely long with a slight nasalitation.
This is for us a very weird sound!.
Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders
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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.08 (01) [E]
>What is interesting here is that in many Rhenish varieties,
>including Limburgish, /d/ changes to [N] (probably after changing to
>[g], thus /nd/ > /ng/ -> [Ng] -> [N]), hence _kenger_ 'children'.
>I'm tending to see this as an intermediate or "preparatory" step for
>[nj], but I'm not sure if it's actually a step in a different
>direction.
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
In Antwerp the same thing happened, but not in the rural communities around.
Antw. kingd (child), Zandvliets kiend; A. mengs (human), Z. mees; A. gezongd
(healthy), Z. gezond, ongs (us, our), Z. oos etc etc. (kongt (bumm),
Kongtich (a village here), ongd (dog)
This is mainly a change of nd > ngd and ns > ngs BUT NOT when a [æ]
precedes: laand (land), kaans (opportunity) etc. with a sound often compared
with French "in".
Secondly, intervocalic nn also often turns to ng. Beginge (to begin), but it
might as well be levelled from the inflected form hij/gij begint (=begind).
The ng is still more often heard in this inflected form I think. But in
general they're disappearing anyway
Here atleast it's not nd -> ng as the -d- usually remains. But it doesn't
always. Vinge = to find, Z. vijne (with long vowel??? [vE.n@]).
In "Standard Antwerpian", being the language the youth here uses in daily
life (also called Schoon Vlaams, Verkavelingsvlaams, etc, but the variant
that occurs in Antwerp is the only one that I know well (being my
mothertongue)), the -ng- has always disappeared, but "vinge" turns "vinne"
with the d being lost anyway. One also says vinde, both are used.
PS I read this velarisation also happened in Holland in earlier centuries.
At first it was in fashion, but after a while it sounded ordinary and was
reversed, so it didn't make any intrusion into the standard language.
PS 2 Google gives a lot of information on this, but most interesting might
be http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/weij005nede01/weij005nede01_0005.htm; read
paragraph 86
Diederik Masure
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.08 (01) [E]
Dear Ron and Sandy,
> You can make a choice between writing in a commonly accepted form or
> avoiding writing in order to preserve the quirky form that belongs to your
> particular area (with all it's stresses and tones and stuff), but if you
> don't write it much it will die out anyway, and then not only do you lose
> the quirkyness, you lose everything.
Thanks for you encouraging me to write my own, regional dialect, perhaps
using very special, unordinary grammar and sequence of letters.
I always adore our Holger Weigelt, having invented his very own
spelling-system for his/our EFLS. And Ron too, when trying to make AS
"salonfähig". Furtheron, Sandy, I have seen you and your countrypeople using
very characteristical ways to 'paint' your language and its regional
dialects. I often think them easier to being interpreted by a speaker of LS
than by someone else just being familiar with any kind of 'School-English'.
But- let's have a look at any example. LS: 'leeg' (E: 'bad', 'lower minded',
G: 'schlecht [charakterlich]') I should prefer to spell (German based)
'leeigh'.
Who will be able to interprete my letters? Just that handful of people being
familiar with my dialect, I fear.
Ron, being aware of this problem, created AS- there it would become perhaps
'leygh' and would be much closer to the real sound than written the
'ordinary' way. And- it is much easier to write, as I mentioned earlier,
specially on a German based keyboard.
But I don't see any greater acceptance for AS at the moment; obviously it
looks too strangely for the maiority.
I just tried to write it in SAMPA (for German)- but I couldn't find any
suitable symbols for this "triphtong".
And there are some more of these, often closer to any different language
(e.g. English, Scandinavian, Dutch) than to Standard German. Well- English
SAMPA wouldn't be a real problem, but for I don't speak those other ones I'd
be unable to interprete their pronounciation.
The charme of a written word mostly is its precision, and the charme of a
spoken word could be its sound, but also its true originality. In so far I
have to agree you, deeply convinced that we must try to keep it alive and
reconstructable for further generations. BTW: this is what I really intend,
my own 'highest instruction'.
With kind regards
Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Thanks for the above, Denis, Diederik and Jonny.
Denis and Diederik, that is very interesting information, especially the
intermediate stage _ngd_ [Nt] ([Nd]?) in Antwerp. I wonder what motivated
this shift, which is a case of dissimilation.
Explanation: The phonemes /n/, /d/, /t/, /z/ and /s/ are related in tongue
position as dento-alveolars, and _ng_ /N/, /g/, /k/, /G/ and /x/ are related
as velars. Assimilation is more natural or predictable in phonology; e.g.,
many English speakers pronounce "length" as "lenth," assimilating the _ng_
[N] to the _th_ [T]. Antwerp Brabantish and similar varieties do the
opposite: the *dis*similate /n/ before (related) /d/ and /s/, thus /kind/
[kInt] -> _kingd_ [kINt], /mens/ [mEns/ -> _mengs_ [mENs] 'human being',
'person'.
Might there be another intermediate stage: nasalization /kind/ -> ki~d ->
kingd, /mens/ -> me~s -> mengs? This intermediate stage, if it is one, is
represented in strongly nasalizing varieties such as Western Flemish and
Afrikaans (_kind_ [k@~t], _mens_ [mE~s]).
Diederik, I've got it hand it to you: you make an impressive phonologist,
being unusually observant even in your own variety (which is hard for some
people). If you keep this up you'll leave us all in the dust.
Jonny, and I have to hand it to you, too. The rest of our Lowlanders is not
aware, with one or two exception, myself included, how far you have actually
come in educating yourself and allowing yourself to be educated. I am
pleased to see that you are open to Sandy's advice, sound advice, as far as
I am concerned.
At the end of the day it doesn't really matter which writing system (if any)
comes out first, as long as it represents all phonemes of the language
(which the watered-down _Wald-und-Wiesen_ version of the German-based system
for Low Saxon does not do, and the continued use of this version is
definitely detrimental to the language). People may not embrace what folks
like Holger, Ingmar and I do in writing Low Saxon, or what folks like Andy
and Sandy do in writing Scots, but at least we are doing *something*. The
rest moans and groans about the way things are and also moans and groans
about each and every suggestion and proposal to change things, to improve
things. The rest moans and groans about doom and gloom and also about
younger people mispronouncing and misusing the language, yet also moans and
groans about any attempt to change it.
This is why I encourage you to go ahead and write your language variety to
the best of your ability, not to let yourself be paralized by doubts and
inhibitions. It may not be perfect at first try, but it will never be
perfect if you don't try at all. Don't allow the moaners, groaners and
naysayers to hold you back! They'll never be happy, no matter what you do.
So forget about them! Instead I ally myself with people and organziations
that are open-minded enough not to dismiss new and experimental things and
are genuinely interested in the language as a living organism, not as a
museum exhibit. One such organization is the Freudenthal-Gesellschaft
(http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/freudenthal2.htm), which tolerates
orthographic diversity, is interested in all sorts of literature (including
"experimental" literature) and was also the first to extend itself across
the border to the Netherlands and the rest of the world. I'm quite happy to
pay the membership fee (even though they collaborated with me a long time
prior to me joining). As far as I can tell, there are similar organizations
in the case of Scots, the Scots Language Society and its periodical
_Lallans_ (http://www.lallans.co.uk/) being one example.
> Ron, being aware of this problem, created AS- there it would become
> perhaps
> 'leygh' and would be much closer to the real sound than written the
> 'ordinary'
> way. And- it is much easier to write, as I mentioned earlier, specially on
> a
> German based keyboard.
> But I don't see any greater acceptance for AS at the moment; obviously it
> looks
> too strangely for the maiority.
>
> I just tried to write it in SAMPA (for German)- but I couldn't find any
> suitable
> symbols for this "triphtong".
In dialects that preserve the _Schleppton_ "drawl tone":
[lE%IG']
([%] is a single dot in IPA, indicating extra length, not full but half. So
the [E] is somewhat lengthened in the diphthong. The [G] represents a gamma
in IPA, a fricative (_Reibelaut_) version of /g/, which is a voiced version
of _ch_ as in _acht_. ['] adds palatalization, so [G'] is the voiced
equivalent of voiceless _ch_ in _ich_ [C].)
Here's my suggestion:
(1) Visit and use the IPA site: http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html
(2) Download its handbook and order the accompanying audio cassette:
http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/sounds.html
(3) Use the SAMPA pages to learn which symbols represent the IPA symbols
you learn and find relevant:
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm
And take it from there. It isn't as difficult as it looks.
Best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron
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