LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (11) [E]

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16 December 2005 * Volume 11
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (02) [E]

Ingmar,

About inhaling words, I thought that was particulary Scandinavian.
Somehow, it seems a sign of insecurity, especially among some older women,
in the Netherlands. But now you mention the inhaled "ja", I remember that
I heard it mostly from people from the North, in this case Groningen and
Friesland, and also but less so Drenthe.
I also read somewhere once that many Scandinavian whistle by sucking the
air in through their lips, instead of blowing it outside.
The funny thing is that this was the way I learnt whistle myself as a
child, only later I found out that all other children did it from inside
to outside. Maybe because of my Scandinavian first name?

You don't actually inhale on the egressive stops. It still arrives at an
exhaled sound. The difference is that the egressive b and d start with a
little tiny instant of inhaling before the regularly exhaled sound starts. I
think of it as trying to say bird or day as someone is punching you. You
still get the b and d, but it starts differently. I'm not a linguist though,
and I may have screwed you up more.
Ben

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (10) [E]

Ron schreev:
>
> Moyen, Henry!
>
>> I believe that in the west they pronounce v as f, both unvoiced, whereas
>> in the east the v is voiced. This is rather black-and-white though.
>
> I noticed the pronunciation [v] for <v> also in the speech of many
> Belgians, especially in Western Flanders.
>
> Isn't this the original pronunciation?
>
> /f/ -> [f]
> /v/ -> [v] ~> [f]
> /w/ -> [v\]
>
I believe so, noting that [v] ~> [f] doesn't take place in certain
dialects/areas.

> Low Saxon of Germany:
>
> /f/ -> [f] <f> ~ <v->
> /v/ -> [v] <w> ~ <-v-> ~ <-f>
>
> There is no /w/.
>
Then in your Saxon the words vater/water are pronounced the same? (I
made vater up, for the sake of the argument.)

In my Saxon the v/f/w are more or less the same as in my Dutch. Or at
least that's what I think.

Henry

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (10) [E]

Hey there, big Kahuna.

Can anyone think of something along these lines in the Lowlands area?

Sometimes when I deem something to be of either great importance, concern or
the like, I'll inhale things like "Oh man!"Hypothetical:  "Ben? It says you
owe $925 on this credit card! Gur'r'r'r'r!"
"(Oh man!) Shite!"
The parentheses mean inhalation in this case. We don't inhale as far as to
make it sound raspy. It's sort of a whispered sound produced by inhalation.
Ben

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Henry schreyv':

> Then in your Saxon the words vater/water are pronounced the same? (I
> made vater up, for the sake of the argument.)

No.  The orthographic representations I gave (< >) are the *conventional* 
German-derived ones:

> /f/ -> [f] <f> ~ <v->
> /v/ -> [v] <w> ~ <-v-> ~ <-f>

Examples with /f/ -> [f] (AS in parentheses):

Fleeg (vleyg') 'fly'
fahrn (varen) 'to drive', 'to ride (a vehicle)'
faken (vaken) 'often'
Vadder (vadder) 'father'
Fro ~ Fru (Vrou ~ Vru) 'woman', 'Mrs.'
af (af) 'off', 'from', 'away'
deffendeern (deffendeyren) 'to defend'

Examples with /v/ -> [v] <w> ~ <-v-> ~ <-f> (AS in parentheses):

wi (wy) 'we'
wenn (wen) 'when', 'if'
Waag (waag') 'scales'
wringen (wringen) 'to wring'
Heven ~ Heben (heven) 'sky'
över ~ öber (oever) 'over', 'above', 'across'
Deef (deyv) 'thief'
Deev (deyv') 'thieves'
Mööw ~ Mööv (moyw') 'gull'
Möwen ~ Möven (moywen) 'gulls'

In the AS system, initial /f/ is <v> (as in Middle Saxon and in line with 
Dutch) but <f> elsewhere.  Medial /v/, which corresponds to /b/ in other 
dialects (e.g., at the Lower Elbe), is written <v>.  (There's no confusing 
due to position and dialect.)  "True" /v/ -- applying in all dialects -- is 
always <w>.

Ben:

> The parentheses mean inhalation in this case. We don't inhale as far as to
> make it sound raspy. It's sort of a whispered sound produced by 
> inhalation.

I think you find the same in the Lowlands.  Let's see what others think.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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