LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.17 (01) [E/LS]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 17 December 2005 * Volume 1
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology
Folks,
I'm combining the current threads "Phonology" and "Orthography" here because
they are very much related and keep overlapping.
Thanks for very interesting communication on these topics so far.
More from me at the end of this line-up.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
----------
From: Henry Pijffers <henry at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (11) [E]
Ron schreev:
>
> Henry schreyv':
>
>> Then in your Saxon the words vater/water are pronounced the same? (I
>> made vater up, for the sake of the argument.)
>
> No. The orthographic representations I gave (< >) are the
> *conventional* German-derived ones:
>
>> /f/ -> [f] <f> ~ <v->
>> /v/ -> [v] <w> ~ <-v-> ~ <-f>
>
<snip/>
>
> Examples with /v/ -> [v] <w> ~ <-v-> ~ <-f> (AS in parentheses):
>
> wi (wy) 'we'
> wenn (wen) 'when', 'if'
> Waag (waag') 'scales'
> wringen (wringen) 'to wring'
>
Ah, the examples wi and wringen ring a bell! Very often in Twente Saxon
those are pronounced with a voiced v, instead of a (Dutch) w! Some
people don't, but I take it that's due to the influence of Dutch.
> In the AS system, initial /f/ is <v> (as in Middle Saxon and in line
> with Dutch) but <f> elsewhere. Medial /v/, which corresponds to /b/ in
> other dialects (e.g., at the Lower Elbe), is written <v>. (There's no
> confusing due to position and dialect.) "True" /v/ -- applying in all
> dialects -- is always <w>.
>
Alright then. The problem with me is that I'm not always sure of the
sounds that go with the IPA/SAMPA notations. I think I've mistaken /v/
to be <v>.
Henry
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (10) [E]
Okay, but I meant in the Amsterdam dialect <ij> and <ei> are [a:]
originally, but when speaking Standard Dutch with an Amsterdam accent
that's usually replaced by [ai] or [E:] or maybe even [ei], because [a:]
is felt to be a too broad prono. Of course, the real Dutch pronunciation
as [Ei] is also frequent in that case.
About the Sampa symbol for Dutch <v> - this should be [f\], not [v\]
Ingmar
>Henry Pijffers schreef:
>My girlfriend (36yo) is a native Amsterdammer, but she never pronounces
><ij> as [a:] or [ai], rather as [e:].
>
>> But also notice that Standard Dutch <v> is NOT the same as English <v>,
>> but something between [v] and [f], for which I use the phonotic symbol
>> [v\]
>> English <v> is more like Dutch <w>.
>>
>Note that in (X-)Sampa the symbol v\ is used to denote the sound of the
>Dutch w.
----------
From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (09) [E]
Hi everyone,
> i've also been pretty interested in the "v" vs. "f"
> pronunciation of "v" in Dutch. I lived in the
> Netherlands many many years ago, and honestly never
> noticed it pronounced "v" at that time (I lived in den
> Haag) However, these days, as I download the NOS
> Journaal every day, I've noticed that the newsreaders
> DO tend to voice the "v". I actually find it kind of
> annoying (that's just a silly subjective reaction).
> I wonder if there is any regional variation in
> preference that some of the native speakers can point
> out to us.
There must have been some ambiguity about these two sounds in German as
well.
As long as the word in question is not borrowed from Latin (like
"eventuell")
the v is always pronounced like "f" (like in "von", "verschieden", "voll").
In other cases the same sound is written as "f" ("like in "für"). The only
way to explain this is that some people in former times voiced the v. The
strangest part about it: I once looked up some of these words in a
dictionary
of Middle High German, and in some cases those words were just the other way
round.
Kind regards,
Heiko Evermann
----------
From: Rikus Kiers <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (10) [E]
Hi everybody interested in v-f,
Ron wrote: In dutch there is no /w/. There is one exeption;
in Katwijk there is the old dialect of real Kattukers . They pronounce the W
as in English/american W. Oewee . My dog always tells us barking when there
are Kattukers or american pedestrians or bikers passing our home.
groet,
Rikus Kiers
----------
From: Klaus-Werner Kahl <kwkahl at plattdeutsch.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.12.16 (09) [LS]
Laiwe Lüde,
et is män so äs´t is: Siet dat Jaor 2000 giw et twiälw eenfacke Üörders, üm
Plat to schriwen, un de gelt för jeed Plat, jerren Tungenslag. Ik do se hier
nao eenmaol wisen. Pat et lig an Ju alle, of Gi se bruukt of Gi maint, dat
dän Dwaddel met de Schriewwisen so wider gaon sol. Wan al de Lüde aal
wüssen, dat et sowat giw, gaw et wisse nich so viël Täggeri daodrüm un auk
nich so unwies viël Waterdüörsken! Un dän kon auk jeedweddereen liäsen, wat
dao schriëwen wät, aon to üöwerläggen, of et nu kuort of lang to uuttoküern
is.
Gutgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best!
Klaus-Werner Kahl
www.plattdeutsch.net
Schriewwise van dat Plat
De haugdüütske Schriewwise, we mäer un mäer in de platdüütske Schriewwise
üöwernuomen wät, gait daovan uut, dat de Waodruonen bibehollen wäert. Auk
wan sik de Silwengrense ännert, bliw de Waodruone de sölwige. Daorüm sint
viële Üörders naidig. In de platdüütske Spraoke gelt düsse Üörders aower
nich. So bliw et nich uut, dat et to´n grauten Dwaddel in de Schriewwisen
kümp. Üm dat an Enne to krigen, döt et sik anbaiden, dat Plat so to
schriwen, äs man et häöert. In mien Book is daorüm dat Postament de Silwe,
so äs se küert wät, aon de Waodruone ächter Wiäge to laoten. Dat Like kan´m
auk in´t Nedersächsiske un in´t Holländske wierfinnen. Daomet is män een
Koppel van Üörders naidig.
Ø Hauptwäöder un Anküerwäöder wäert graut schriëwen.
Ø Postament is de Silwe, so äs se küert wät. Ännert sik de Silwengrense,
ännert sik auk de Schriewwise.
Bispiële: Baan = Bahn à Ba·nen = Bahnen stats Baa·nen; Schien = Schein à
Schi·ne = Scheine stats Schiene; Pin = Stift à Pin·ne = Stifte; plat =
flach à plat·te = flache.
Ø De Waodruone wät nich ächter Wiäge laoten.
Bispiële: Kuorw = Korb stats Kuorf à Küör·we = Körbe; Kring = Kreis stats
Krink à Krin·ge = Kreise.
Ø Wäöder wäert ümmer an de Silwengrense deelt.
Bispiël: Püüs·ter = Gewehr.
Ø Dat e to´t Langtrecken wät blaus bi dän Egenluut i schriëwen, üm bi
handschriëwene Wäöder kien Vöwesseln mit dat ü to häbben.
Bispiële: Wien = Wein; mien = mein; liek = gleich.
Ø Dat h to´t Langtrecken wät nich bruukt.
Ø Langtrockene Egen- un Ümlute wäert an´t Enne van de Silwe eenfak
schriëwen. Bispiële: Ve = Vieh; to = zu; mi = mir; sü = siehe.
Ø Langtrockene Egen- un Ümlute wäert in afsluotene Silwen un an´n
Silwenanfang dubbelt schriëwen.
Bispiële: Muul = Maul; uut = aus.
Ø För sik küerte Egen- un Ümlute wäert eenfak schriëwen.
Bispiële: A·pe = Affe; a·wat = ach was.
Ø Kuort küerte Egen- un Ümlute wäert eenfak schriëwen; daodüör sint dubbelt
schriëwene Metlute nich naidig.
Bispiële: Ülk = Iltis; of = ob; düt = dies.
Ø Dat kwette e wät düör een e met een Trema beliekteekt.
Bispiële: guët = gut, Rië·kel = männlicher Hund.
Ø Dubbelt schriëwene Metlute in ene Silwe giw et nich.
Met düsse Üörders laot sik alle platdüütsken Wäöder akkraot schriwen, wan
man up de dat Vökläören van de Uutspraoke uppäs. Uutnaomen sint nich naidig.
----------
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.12.16 (09) [LS]
Moin, Reyni,
Du schreyvst:
> Dat probleem is, dat dat "Plat"-schryven bit her tou vun luyd' tou houp
> kraamt worren is, dey mayst niks vun fonology verstaan dout un versoykt
> "foneetsch" tou schryven, wat beduydt, dat sey ook unnoetigen kraam
> mit-schyvt. Dat langer-uutspreken vun sülvstluden voer /r/, /l/, /m/, /n/
> un /N/ (/ng/) is 'n foneetsche saak, dey de spreker automaatsch na 'n
> regel
> uut-sprikt; un sey is by 't schryven oever-laydig.
Na, ick weyt ne recht, wat Du dor sou radikool mit ümgoon schullst.
För wat hebbt wi in't Hougdüütsche:
_der Aal_ ('the eel') vs _die Ahle_ ('a shoemakers needle') vs _das All_
('the universe')? Ouk unnödigen Kroom, oder passt dat nich tou disse
vigeliinschen Regels?
BTW: Du schrivvst sülbst 'kraam(t)'- wöör hier denn ne ouk 'kram(t)' beter?
Allerbest' Greutens un' gouden Sünndag
Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology
Leyve Klaus-Werner,
Du hest (baven) schreven:
> et is män so äs´t is: Siet dat Jaor 2000 giw et twiälw eenfacke Üörders,
> üm Plat to schriwen, un de gelt för jeed Plat, jerren Tungenslag.
Un woukeyn stayt daar achter? Woukeyn hett dat recht orders tou geven?
"Vörsleeg'" dou ik geyrn an-nemen, tou mindst bedinken. Man "orders"? Or
bruukt Jy in 't Westvaalsche dat wourd "Üörders" in 'n annern sin?
Leyve Jonny,
Un Du hest (baven) schreven:
> Na, ick weyt ne recht, wat Du dor sou radikool mit ümgoon schullst.
> För wat hebbt wi in't Hougdüütsche:
> _der Aal_ ('the eel') vs _die Ahle_ ('a shoemakers needle') vs _das All_
> ('the universe')? Ouk unnödigen Kroom, oder passt dat nich tou disse
> vigeliinschen Regels?
> BTW: Du schrivvst sülbst 'kraam(t)'- wöör hier denn ne ouk 'kram(t)'
> beter?
Hmm ... Dat lett my, Du hest vun düsse saak, dey ik verklaren wul, noch nich
allens heyl un deyl verstaan.
(1) Neddersassisch un Duytsch ("Hoogduytsch") sünd twey eygen-stendige
spraken mit twey eygen-stendige fonologyen. Wen wy jüm in eyn put smeten
deen, den koymen wy boys' in 'n tuydel.
(2) Dey regel, dey na in 't Neddersassische 'n korten sülvstluud in de
uutspraak wat langer wardt, wen hey vör /m/, /n/, /N/, /l/ or /r/ tou staan
kümt, düsse regel givt dat in 't Duytsche nich. Nipper un nauer segd, givt
't er man bloots in Missingsch-dialekten, d. h. Duytsche dialekten up
Neddersassische substraten (mit meyrstdeyls Neddersassische fonology).
(3) Düsse regel na wardt 'n *korten* sülvstluud wat langer. Dat dayt nich
beduyden, dat hey tou 'n langen sülvstluud ward. Hey is un blivt 'n korten
sülvstluud, dey *foneetsch* (nich foneemsch) langer is (d.h., wat langer
uut-spraken wardt).
(4) Wouans koent wy (3) bewysen? (A) Dey regel dayt konsekwent gelden. (B)
Alleynig de lengde dayt sik ennern, nich de "kloyr" vun den sülvstluud; t.
b. (aan vun tweyluden tou snakken) ...
(4.1) In 't Nourdsassische wardt de *korten* sülvstluden
in 't geheyl so uut-spraken:
/a/ [a] (as in Duytsch _Kamm_)
/e/ [E] (as in Duytsch _wenn_)
/i/ [I] (as in Duytsch _bis_)
/o/ [O] (as in Duytsch _noch_)
/u/ [U] (as in Duytsch _Kuss_)
/ö/ [œ] (as in Dutch _löschen_)
/ü/ [Y] (as in Duytsch _küssen_)
(4.2) In 't Nourdsassische wardt de *langen* sülvstluden
in 't geheyl so uut-spraken:
/aa/ [Q:] ~ [o:] (as in Ingelsch _Nepal_ or Duytsch _Sohn_)
/ee/ [e:] (as in Duytsch _wen_)
/ii/ [i:] (as in Duytsch _blieb_)
/oo/ [o:] (as in Duytsch _Sohn_)
/uu/ [u:] (as in Duytsch _Kur_)
/öö/ [ø:] (as in Dutch _lösen_)
/üü/ [y:] (as in Duytsch _kühn_)
(4.3) Wen dey korten sülvstluden na de regel langer uut-spraken wardt,
den dout sey lykers an jüm er "korte kloyr" vast-holden; d.
h., sey wardt
nich tou echte (foneemsche) lange sülvstluden, man bloots tou
langer
uut-sprakene korte sülvstluden; e.g. ...
/lam/ -> [la:\m] <lam> (<Lamm>) (lamb)
{nich /laam/ -> [lQ:m] ~ [lo:m] <laam> (<lahm>)
(lame)}
/ven/ -> [vE:\n] <wen> (<wenn>) (when, if)
{nich /veen/ -> [ve:n] <ween> (<wen>) (whom,
someone)}
/sin/ -> [zI:\n] <sing!> (mind)
{nich /ziin/ -> [zi:n] <syn> (<sien>) (to be)}
/dol/ -> [dO:\l] <dol> (<doll>) (crazy, strongly)
{nich /dool/ -> [do:l] <dool> (<Dohl>) (daw)}
/kur/ -> [kU:\3] <kur> (<Kurr>) (dragnet)
{nich /kuur/ -> [ku:3] <kuur> (<Kur>) (cure)}
/för+n/ -> [fœ:3n] <vörn> (fore, front(al))
{nich /föör+n/ -> [fø:3n] <voer(e)n> (<Föhrn>)
(pinetrees)}
/tün+n/ -> [tY:\n(:)] <tünnen> (<Tünn(en)>) (vats, tons)
{nich /tüün+n/ -> [ty:n(:)] <tuynen> (<Tüün>)
(fences)}
> BTW: Du schrivvst sülbst 'kraam(t)'- wöör hier denn ne ouk 'kram(t)'
> beter?
Nee! Heyl un deyl nich! In myn schryvwys' wardt <kram(t)> as [kra:\m(t)]
uut-spraken (as of up Duytsche wys' *<kramm(t)> schreven). De regel in al
de schryvwysen -- bloots nich in de Leer-Schryvwys' vun de karkenluyd' -- is
"Schryv 'n langen sülvstluud eynvach in 'n apene sülv'; schryv' em dubbeld
in 'n slatene sülv'."
Wardt Dy dat nu wat duydlicher, leyve Jonny?
(Sorry, folks. I don't have enough time to translate all of this into
English ...)
Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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