LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.19 (04) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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   L O W L A N D S - L * 19 December 2005 * Volume 4
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.18 (01) [E]

I cannot find the symbol for Dutch <v> in your Wiki X-SAMPA link.
Just [v\] that's for Dutch <w>.
I know it's confusing, Henry, but that's a totally different sound.
Dutch <v> isn't mentioned at all, probably there is no Sampa symbol for
it yet. I'll send in a proposal to use [f\] for that to the Sampa-guys.

To avoid your and others' confusion in the future, the alternative Sampa
symbol [P] for Dutch <w> could be used instead of [v\]. [P] is also in the
list.

Ingmar

Henry Pijffers schreef:
>So you say the Wiki on X-SAMPA is incorrect?
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-SAMPA
>Ingmar schreev:
>> About the Sampa symbol for Dutch <v> - this should be [f\], not [v\]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.17 (01) [E/LS]

Ron wrote, in response to Jonny:
> Hmm ... Dat lett my, Du hest vun düsse saak, dey ik verklaren wul, noch
nich
> allens heyl un deyl verstaan.
>
> (1) Neddersassisch un Duytsch ("Hoogduytsch") sünd twey eygen-stendige
> spraken mit twey eygen-stendige fonologyen.  Wen wy jüm in eyn put smeten
> deen, den koymen wy boys' in 'n tuydel.

Sorry, big Kahuna, can't let you get away with this. Whenever somebody
disagrees with your proposed orthography, it simply means they haven't seen
the light and do not understand your superior way of reasoning?

Butchering the look of our beloved Lower Saxon with your "reformed"
orthography is just a hobby of yours, not a natural consequence of
linguistic differences. You can experiment with this all you want, but don't
expect the actual speakers to go along with this radical and not very pretty
makeover (like giving your granny a navel piercing and making her wear
bellbottoms). You have reasoned before that in your proposed orthography,
there would still be plenty of room for different local pronunciations,
varieties and flavours (which frankly I don't see at all, since it is
heavily based on coastal Platt). So the same should hold true even more for
the traditional spelling (even if you do perceive it as German-based),
because it very easily allows for regional differences.

I know we have had this discussion before, and despite all your previous
explanations, I obviously still haven't seen the light. Sorry, can't help
it. We shall probably never see eye to eye on this one.

In'n Tüddel kummt wi noch lang nich... laat man use Spraak tauvreden!
(Actually, this is already standardised, around here it would be "Spraok".)

Gabriele Kahn

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.17 (01) [E/LS]

Beste Reyni,

Du schreevst in Dien Verkloorn:
> (1) Neddersassisch un Duytsch ("Hoogduytsch") sünd twey eygen-stendige
> spraken mit twey eygen-stendige fonologyen.  Wen wy jüm in eyn put smeten
> deen, den koymen wy boys' in 'n tuydel....
> ....Wardt Dy dat nu wat duydlicher, leyve Jonny?

Jo!! Nu hebb ick 't opletzt doch noch begreepen! Besten Dank för Dien 
No-Helpen!

Man- ick mutt woll bi mien leidige Hoogdüütsche Phonology blieben, anners 
köönt mien Nobers hier mi ne verstoon.
Un- een Deel is dor noch bi: üm 'n egenständige, viegeliensche 
Nedderdüütsche Phonology k'rrekt tou schrieben fehlt mi de Grundloog; dor 
bün 'ck tou dusselig tou.

Allerbest Greutens un Kumpelmenten

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Leyve Jonny,

> Man- ick mutt woll bi mien leidige Hoogdüütsche Phonology blieben,
> anners köönt mien Nobers hier mi ne verstoon.

I, too, use the German-based orthography with the "normal" crowd, but I 
tweak it to use it *consistently*, neither trying to make it look less 
"high" nor trying to make it look more "high," just according to the 
phonology of the language itself.  This is less "radical" than many other 
people's methods, and it seems like a nice compromise and hardly ever 
ruffles the feathers of the ultra-conservative and Germanization proponent 
crowds (i.e., those that are fundamentally opposed to LS having separate 
status, these days of official recognition generally not expressed 
publicly), people that show signs of feeling threatened even by an auxiliary 
spelling method.

It doesn't really matter what method you use, what characters, what 
alphabet, as long as you do so consistently based on the native phonology. 
Even Sass recommended this (e.g., distinctions between monophthongs and 
diphthongs), though he doesn't seem to have thought it through to the end.

That ("High") German and the language in question have two distinct 
phonological systems does not even require studying Linguistics 101, though 
dealing with orthographic representation probably does. Anyone who has ever 
listened to the two languages or has read descriptions of them ought to 
realize that.  Those that don't probably choose not to.

Best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron 

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