LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.04 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Phonology"

Ron wrote:
> Again, there are dialects that have falling diphthongs where the above
have
> monophthongs and tend to be written as such; e.g., _huog_ 'high' and
> _hüöger_ 'higher'.  But again, this is merely a dialect-(group-)specific
> device contributing to unnecessary orthographic diversity.  As far as I am
> concerned, it's of interest mostly to linguists, and they have access to
IPA
> and SAMPA for those specific purposes (he says crossing over into
> "Orthography").

Hello Ron !

As I already stated in a former posting in Eastern Friesland Low Saxon we
have for example the following e-phonemes:
e [@] "Schwa"
e [E] / äe [E:]
ē [e:] / ê [e:e]
and the diphthongs:
äi [æI] / äie [æ:I]
ei [EI] / äj [E:I] / äej [E:EI]
which must be distinguished orthographically (what doesn't happen in the
traditional German based orthography in which - apart from the attempts of
some individual writers who want to express their feeling of the
difference - all these occur as -e- or -ee-).
Nevertheless there is much variation in the individual or local
pronounciation and You will often hear the long or superlengthened vowels
diphthongized (some speakers also will pronounce nearly [æ:] instead of [e:]
but such variation need not be shown orthographically). But this
diphthongization must strictly be distinguished from real diphthongs and
must never be indicated in orthography.
All speakers using for example [e:I] instead of plain [e:] or speaking all
of them including the diphthongs as a variation of [e:] know (or better
feel - because they mostly aren't conscious about this) the difference
between the above mentioned vowels and distinguish words from each other
based on the quoted system. If You ask them to order words all written
with -ee- in a table You will find these words put in an order reflecting
the above sceme.

Another fact is that many people believe the sounds [E:] [I:] [U:] [O:] [œ:]
[Y:] (I write them: äe ie ue oe öe üe) which are phonemes in EFLS to be a
kind of diphthongs (especially because these are often diphthongized as
[E:@] [I:@ or I:I] [U:@ or U:U]  [O:@ or O:O] and so on (in cases of I:I U:U
O:O the second component is a weak repetition of the sound instead of a
Schwa). These vowels however are no diphthongs but monophthongs (but most
people here take their - often subconscious - knowledge of phonetics from
German which doesn't have similar sounds except the short ones what makes it
impossible for those people to acknowledge these sounds).

Now, what I told here about Eastern Friesland Low Saxon I suspect to be
similar in other regions and I argue that there also must be distinguished
between real diphthongs and diphthongized vowels especially in orthography.
For this reason words like >_huog_ 'high' and  _hüöger_ 'higher'. might be
regarded possibly as diphtongizations or (what I believe) as variants
replacing a general [o:] (as in EFLS hōğ / hōğer) by an - diphthongized -
[U:] or [Y:] which just isn't identified correctly.

If this is correct the obove mentioned sounds [E:] [I:] [U:] [O:] [œ:] [Y:]
are common in Low Saxon and should have an orthographic representation. In
cases of diphthongization the vowels should always be written as
monophthongs.

Kind regards
Holger

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: phonology

Hi Diederik

Where did an Icelander like you learn to speak Belgium-Brabantish so well?
;-)
Waor edde gai zo goe Braobants geleerd, toch nie oep Aisland, zune? ;-)

I think someone must have been mislead by your email account, but I'm really
curious if you understood his welcoming reply to you...

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar (above):

> I think someone must have been mislead by your email account, but I'm
really
> curious if you understood his welcoming reply to you...

Nope, the someone wasn't the gullible one, and Diederik for one appears to
have understood this, according to his and the someone's following offline
exchange.  After all, it was the someone that added Diederik's real name at
the end and was also the one who had received his application to join.

Hah! So there!

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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