LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.14 (02) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 14.FEB.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.11


Hi again Ron!
Did you receive the message I sent Feb. 11 infra? (compare: Santa, did you
get my wensliste?)
I didn't see it posted, although my wife Robin swept it for obscenities and
gave it her Persilschein. Was it too boring? If Gothic is too old, slightly
older than Old English, and doesn't appear on your Wren's radar screen,
please let me know.
For a later date, we found (tiny) traces of Gothic left in the Crimea:
mostly place names, some agricultural or metallurgical terminology. After
getting it in some semblance of order, we will forward it to you and expose
it to the krekuli to eviscerate.
Thanks for being there.
Con i piu distinti saluti,
Arthur

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From:  Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.13 (08) [E]

Hei Ron,

> So what happened there in Dutch regarding the concept of giving presents?
> Was it never developed or did it fall out of fashion natively?  Why is
there
> no native word?  Why French-derived _cadeau_ and German-derived _Geschenk_
> for 'gift' or 'present'?

_Gift_ is also used in Dutch for 'present', _gave_ is archaic (Bible).
Neither is considered a loan (van Dale) ( cfr. geven, gaf, gegeven; hij
geeft).
If _skenken_ is Old Low Franconian, Dutch _geschenk_  doesn't have to be a
loan either. _ge-_ is a common prefix, making an object from a verb. A
_geschenk_ is understood as 'what's being given ' (wat geschonken is, het
geschonkene) . It was mainly said of  fluids but originally it meant
'oblique' (scheef houden) and its new meaning possibly goes back to the
classical period, where libations (plengoffers), were one of the most common
gifts to the gods.
Today, in Dutch-speaking area's its common to pay for the others in a pub
who than drink on his/her sanity ("gezondheid"), and spirits are often given
present. The first thing visitors being asked is what they want to drink.On
special occasions all full glasses are tinkled together to make sure some
drips reach the floor as a 'geschenk' for longforgotten gods, so after a few
glasses, in return, one gets lightly _beschonken_.
Nil nove sub sole.

Vriendelijke groeten,

Jo Thys

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From:  Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi Ron

you wrote
'I cannot find an Old Low Franconian word for 'gift'.'

just looked at the dictionaries link for older Germanic languages you posted
a while back - they have Old Low Franconian 'geva' for gift - so they were
more generous than you're giving them credit ;o)

Gary

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Arthur (above):

> Did you receive the message I sent Feb. 11 infra?

I'm afraid the answer is "Nope."  Perhaps your dear lady used OxyClean along
with of Persil, and it all came out in the wash.

Could you resend it?

Gary (above):

> so they were more generous than you're giving them credit ;o)

Hey!  *I* didn't say anything.  Just wondering.  The absence of a word for a
concept, or the absence of a distinction between "to give" and "to give to
keep" could also mean the opposite: that giving things to keep is a given, a
default, as is found in many of the world's cultures, such as in the
Americas, Siberia, Central Asia, Oceania and Australia.  Seriously, it's an
interesting question with a cultural anthropology angle.

Aside from that, it's often impossible to tell why loanwords push native
equivalents aside or even out of existence.  It could simply be a matter of
"fads gotten stuck" or of introduced cultural variants labeled by means of
the corresponding foreign words.  Let's assume -- and I'm plucking this out
of the air -- that a _geva_, _gift_ and the like was simply a gift of
anything, anything given to keep, and a _cadeau_, a foreign-derived
innovation, was a gift that was nicely wrapped or in some other way prettied
up and presented in a special, ceremonial way.  (Again: I made this up.)  I
could see that, as this introduced way of giving established itself as
default, the introduced word established itself with it, eventually to
become the default.  I could imagine this to have happened in the case of
English (native) _gift_ vs (French) _present_, where the latter may have
implied some formal, ceremonial presentation and the former was either
neutral or "unceremonial," "casual."  Again: this is purely hypothetical.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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