LL-L "Numeral" 2005.02.14 (03) [E]

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2005.02.13 (05) [E]

As for vigesimal counting systems, despite claims to the contrary, it has
NOT quite gone the way of the hula hoop. Though the "easier" decimal system
(e.g. "21" = dauddeg un" literally "two-ten one") is promoted by some
(including in schools), the vigesimal system is very much alive and well
(especially in the North? - just my impression). (See comments by Gareth
King, Modern Welsh: A Comprehensive Grammar (Routledge Grammars). Routledge,
1993. pp. 111, 114; also see David A. Thorne, A Comprehensive Welsh Grammar
/ Gramadeg Cymraeg Cynhwysfawr, Blackwell, 1993. p. 148, note 2 re the
realm(s) of use of the decimal system.)

In fact in Middle Welsh, the vigesimal system was used up to 200 (with the
in-between number being being "remainder and X times 20", so "470 men" in
the "Brut Dingestow" was "deng wyr a thrugeint a phetwar cannur" lit. "ten
men and three-score and four hundred-men". (In Modern Welsh you will find
"chweugain" = "120" literally "6-20s", but other high vigesimal-based
numbers appear to be rare.) (For the related Brytthonic language Brezhoneg /
Breton, F. Faverau writes (Grammaire du Breton Contemporain / Yezhadur ar
Brezhoneg a-Vremañ, Skol Vreizh, 1997, p. 131) that the vigesimal system is
the rule for numbers to100, but can also be used up to 200 ... and even
beyond (e.g. daouzeg-ugent" "twelve score".)

Even more interesting is the Old Welsh form for "30" = "trimuceint", which
is clearly "three-twenty !"  (Source: D. Simon Evans, A Grammar of Middle
Welsh. Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1976. p 46. For those who can
read Welsh, the best short summary of the use of the two systems is Peter
Wynn Thomas, Gramadeg y Gymraeg, Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru,1996, pp. 299-300.)

Also interesting is the word for "18": "deunaw" lit. "two-nines".

The system for the rest of the teens is actually a mixture of three systems:
1) "X-ten" for 12 and 15 (e.g. "deudec" = "12") (compare the English system
"fif-teen"
2) "X on ten" for 11, 13, and 14 (e.g. "tri ar dec" = "13") (compare the
Slavic system, e.g. Polish dwanaście (dwa-na-ście "2 on 10" where ście <
dziesięć )
   (nb. earlier texts sometimes ahve forms from system 1: e.g. "pedwardeg" =
"14")
3) "X on five-ten" for 16, 17 and 19 (e.g. "deu ar bymthec" = "17") (Old
Welsh has "naunec" for "19", obviously also from sysetm 1)

Modern Welsh "ugain" (Middle Welsh "ugein(t)") is clearly related to the
"twenty" word found in Irish (Old Irish "fiche") and also in a number of
other Indo-European branches:
  Romance: Latin viginti
  Indic: Nepali बीस /bis/, Romani (Russian Kalderash) биш /biš/ (Sanskrit
विंश /vims/)
  Iranic: Kirmanji (N. Kurdish) bīst
  Greek: εικοσι, Doric Fικατι
  Armenian: Քսան /k'san/
  Albanian: njëzet (nb. një = "1" and -zet = "twenty")
  Tocharian A: wiki

Welsh, however, is to my knowledge (or at least memory thereof) the ONLY
modern Indo-European language which carries this "twenty"-word to mulitples
of twenty. (Nepali 30 is  तीस /tis/, and Kirmanji 30 is sī.) (In Modern
Welsh, note however that "50" is generally "hanner cant" literally "half a
hundred". A VERY interesting system ... yn wir!)

As for use of subtraction in the vigesimal system, R.A. Thorne (p. 148, note
4), notes examples, especially but not solely from earlier editions of the
Welsh Bible (e.g. "unid pedwar trigain" = "56" literally "but four
three-twenties" in the 1955 edition).

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

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From:  Domhnall Seaghdha <domhnall at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2005.02.13 (07) [E]

Hi, Jacqueline...  Good morning!

Your reminder that 'systems change' reminds me, alas, that I apparently do
NOT -- at least in some ways...

In my zeal and haste to "float an idea to the group", 'twould seem I
neglected to read over or "check" the details for my humble assertion before
sending off.  Of course, any one l would hope and expect to find TEN
examples given when I stated I would list the Persian-language words for the
numbers one through ten!

So -- here I (re)present -- and promise to re-read and check for mistakes
BEFORE hitting the "send" key -- the Persian-language [_farsi_] numbers from
one to twenty...

yek (yeh);  do:  se;  chahar (chah'r); panj; shish; haft; hasht; noh; dah;
yazdah; davozdah; sizdah; chahardah (chah'dah); punzdah; shunzdah; hivdah;
hashdah; nunzdah; bist....

A warm thank you to everyone who "fine tuned" and even gently clarified some
points I had blurred or even mistated -- especially my incorrectly
describing the the role of "twenty" [vingt] and multiples of it as it would
be expressed in French.

(Perhaps you can better understand my continued, life-long appreciation for
the gentle 'help' and CONTINUAL --  but NEVER unkind -- correctional,
instructive "assistance" the people of France, Quebec and even Morocco have
always afforded me during my visits to their lands, as did my own Alsatian
great-grandmother throughout the few years I got to share with her....
That French, German & Alsatian "gave way" to English, Gaidhlig, Gaelige, and
Scots in this family's 3rd generation in this hemisphere in NO way says
anything about them but rather reflect's this immigrant family's
acculturation to newer circumstances...    Watching my nieces and nephews
grow and thrive -- in English -- with Spanish being rapidly added in --
suggests to me that Gaidhlig, Gaelige and Scots will soon be our "other",
former languages as pale, "ancestral" memories...)

Regards!

Domhnall

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