LL-L "Etymology" 2005.01.30 (03) [E]

Sun Jan 30 19:31:05 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 30.JAN.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Ron you asked:

"Is this the _Stollen_ (masculine) that people eat at Christmas, or is it
the _Stulle_ 'sandwich' (feminine)?"

It was Stollen/Stolle the cake, as opposed to Stulle the sandwich, but
having said that I can see how there could possibly be some interference
from the latter onto the former.

Gary

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From: Rikus Kiers <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2005.01.29 (01) [A/E]

> From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2005.01.28 (03) [E]
>
> Dear Pat & Mike'
>
> Subject: LL-L "Language contacts"
>
>> >i'm trying to write a proposal to study the affects german
>> colonists  had on
>> >afrikaans, but i don't have much to work from. does anyone have any
>> >knowledge of
>> >the subject or could suggest someone who may appropriately answer  my
>> >questions? it would be very appreciated - thanks
>
>> (but there is a whole literature on the so-called Cape Dutch
>> Gable, which does say that it is German rather than Dutch).
>
>> Pat
>> (who is hesitant about using national tags for anything other than
>> language, without a great deal of preamble and footnoting, particularly
>> in the early periods of VOC colonies)
>
>
>    Best of luck, Mike! If I pick up anything, I'll pass it on, but I
> doubt
> if I will. Language drifts in the direction of the mother, for the most
> part, & the VOC made a point of recruiting 'Low German' artisans for
> their
> many merits, but I don't think they went out of their way to recruit
> German
> wives. It was as unattached young men these fellows came to South
> Africa, &
> as such I would expect the contribution of German to Afrikaans to be
> restricted to technical language, if any.
>    There were at times German settlement groups brought to South
> Africa, as
> eg to Bedford & Berlyn (post English Conquest) in the Eastern
> Province, but
> by then the language was established.
>    Then there were, among other German mission groups in Natal (then
> in the
> English sphere of influence), the Moravian missionaries (Hernutters), who
> had an influential if quiet part in our History.
>    There has of course been incidental ingress, mostly as traders,
> from the
> earliest days of settlement. Some of the 'Germans' turn out on further
> research to have been Litvak Jews, but there were also many Lutherans.
>    I read occasionally in romances based on the old times that some or
> other hero's antagonist or pro- 'has a brother trading in Heidelberg
> in the
> Transvaal---'.
>    You can see from place-names that Germans have certainly made their
> mark, but not significantly in terms of language.
>
>    One thing tickles: Ron commented in another thread on the Low-Saxon
> usage (now & again) in English, 'Af en dan'; whereas in Afrikaans we
> say 'Af
> en toe' which seems to me nearer the German' --- for a change.
>
> Yrs,
>    Mark
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
> Subject: Language contacts
>
> Dag, Mark!
>
> Dis baie lekker om jou  weer te "sien" en oor jou gedagtes en ideë te
> lees,
> my lewe makker.
>
> What you said about "Germans" in Southern Africa makes a lot of sense
> to me,
> certainly the predominance of males,  especially in the early days.
>
> As for speakers of Low Saxon, please bear in mind that many may have
> immigrated under the labels of "Germans"* and "Dutch/Netherlanders."
> At any
> rate, I can imagine that they quickly adapted to the "Dutch" language
> environment, because it was relatively easy for them (especially for the
> latter) and, again, in the early days there was a predominance of males
> (possibly many sailors) that married or were living with colonial "Dutch"
> speakers, in which case the women tended to rear the children, either
> alone
> or in collaboration with nannies, many of which were "Malay."
>
> At any rate, this is merely conjecture, but it makes a lot of sense to
> me.
> What do others think?
>
> (* Incidentally, this also applied to other emigrating linguistic
> minorities
> from Germany, especially to Frisians and Sorbs. For instance, sizeable
> groups of Sorbs immigrated to overseas locations in the 19th century,
> especially to Australia and Texas, where eventually they gave up their
> language because they tended to congregate and intermarry with German,
> Polish or Czech immigrants. The reasons seem to be that their own
> communities was too small for extensive internal intermarriage, they
> spoke
> German as a second language and could to a degree communicate with and
> adapt
> to fellow West-Slavonic speakers.)
>
>>     One thing tickles: Ron commented in another thread on the Low-Saxon
>> usage (now & again) in English, 'Af en dan'; whereas in Afrikaans we say
>> 'Af
>> en toe' which seems to me nearer the German' --- for a change.
>
>
> It's not *_af un dan_ but _af un an_, earlier _af en an_ (literally
> translated into Afrikaans: *_af en aan_).  _Af un tou_ is also used.
> I have
> a sneaking suspicion that German _ab und zu_ was originally based on it.
> _Ab und an_ only occurs in certain Missingsch dialects of German and in
> "better" North German dialects influenced by them, definitely sounds very
> northern.  Note that this _af un an_ is literally translated _off and
> on_ in
> English, which is indeed an English expression!  (I guess the original
> idea
> was *"away and towards," i.e. "coming and going" = "appearing/occurring
> occasionally," and this applies to _af un tou_ as well.)
>
> Groete,
> Reinhard/Ron

Mark and Ron,

Wouldn't it be easier to suppose that "af en toe" in suid-afrikaans comes
directly from "af en toe" in dutch?
As far as I now does the term mean "every now and then"in English. Ab und zu
ist ähnlich zu af en toe.

Rikus Kiers

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dag, Rikus!

I can't speak for our friend Mark, but I for one never meant to suggest that
Afrikaans _af en toe_ came from anything but Dutch _af en toe_.  It was a
given in my mind.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear.  This goes to show
that it's a good idea to actually say what one does and does not have in
mind rather than to assume folks will automatically know it.

Wherever it came from originally, _af en toe_ ~ _af un tou_ ought to be seen
as a shared "Low German" (i.e., Low Franconian and Low Saxon) phrase (with
German _ab und zu_ possibly having been derived from Low Saxon).

In fact, as I at least implied in my response to Mark and in some earlier
postings, I doubt that Low Saxon influence on Afrikaans is significant at
all, mostly because Low Saxon speakers were mostly men in the early days,
and similarities between Low Saxon, Dutch, Zeelandic and Afrikaans would
have favored swift integration into the Low-Franconian-speaking communities,
apart from the fact that children tended to be raised by
Low-Franconian-speaking mothers and "Malay"-speaking nannies.

Having said this, however, I do wonder if in Namibia, with its more
significant German-born and -derived population, there are or used to be Low
Saxon associations.  Does anyone know?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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