LL-L "Language competency" 2005.07.14 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 15.JUL.2005 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From:  Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Language competency"


Hello Ron !
You really pointed out what I wanted to say. But to complicate things we
also must keep in mind that there are or may be differences in meaning
between the same or similar expressions in different Low Saxon dialects.
For example: You wrote
>'They (have) attacked him' would seem to me to be more authentically
translated as _Sey sünd/hebt em an-gaan_ (<Se sünd/hebbt em angahn>)<
In EFLS this would be: "säi hebbent hum angóón" meaning: "they had made much
noise"(German: lärmen, toben, Krawall machen, randalieren). However this
sentence has to be completed for example as "säi hebbent hum (d'r) läip
angóón" or "säi hebbent hum angóón as mallen" (they made noise as if being
mad).
By the way: If writing English I feel a "lack of sharpness" in LS
expressions (compared for example with German)which often makes it very
difficult to find a correct translation. LS is more a sum of expressions
rather than of distinct words and the meaning of these expressions then is
tuned by context. And here again we have a difficulty for actual speakers
who develop their sentences on German base because German works quite
different.
And - You already pointed out, Ron - we come into conflict because we want
to encourage everybody to speak LS but the increasing contamination with
German (in lexicon, grammar or whatever structures) leads to further decay.
Moreover there are people who deny the right to demand something like a pure
or genuine LS explaining that the changes are just normal developement of a
living language. Of course: Every living language undergoes changes but
where is the borderline between healthy and unhealthy changes ?  I believe
it would be much easier if both languages were more distinct from each
other.

Regards
Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language competence

Moyen, Holger!

I think you made some really noteworthy points above, and, as you said, 
difficult ones, too.

> By the way: If writing English I feel a "lack of sharpness" in LS
> expressions (compared for example with German)which often makes it very
> difficult to find a correct translation. LS is more a sum of expressions
> rather than of distinct words and the meaning of these expressions then is
> tuned by context. And here again we have a difficulty for actual speakers
> who develop their sentences on German base because German works quite
> different.

I suppose all languages are like that to one degree or other.  However, you 
are probably right in saying that Modern Low Saxon has a particular wealth 
of idiomatic expressions with context-dependent shades of meaning, and 
dialectical differences can be considerable in this regard, as you 
demonstrated.

This may well be a feature of language varieties that are not overshadowed 
by any over-arching, uniting standard variety, by a standard variety that 
establishes a fixed common repertoire which eventually influences the 
repertoires of the "sub-standard" varieties.  This seems to be the case even 
where there is a more or less well-defined standard now but there was none 
in the relatively recent past, thus languages that are or used to be almost 
purely spoken ones, enjoying a sort of _Narrenfreiheit_ because they are not 
taken terribly seriously by many.  I can think of examples like Swiss 
Alemannic ("Swiss German," which has separate language ambitions from 
German), Afrikaans (which used to be sub-standard to Dutch) and Yiddish 
(which is overshadowed by Hebrew as well as by various national languages, 
used to be considered inferior), also Neo-Norwegian (Nynorsk) which has a 
rather loose standard and permits or even encourages regionalisms.  Perhaps 
this is what people tend to perceive as "colorful."  I feel that English, 
too, more or less falls into this category, perhaps by virtue of great 
geographical diversity and diverse standards as well as a relatively high 
degree of tolerance of diversity within standard varieties.  Most of the 
time I have an easier time translating LS idiomatic expressions into English 
than into German.  It feels less "stiff," if you know what I mean.

So, despite many advantages such as unification and thus increased survival 
chances (especially of highly diverse endangered languages), one might side 
with the "naysayers" on this score by arguing that the creation of a 
standard variety has the disadvantage of lessening diversity by way of 
influencing other varieties.  If a standard is ever created (which is highly 
doubtful considering a preponderance of extremely conservative, close-minded 
and fatalistic attitudes especially in Germany) a loose standard like that 
of Neo-Norwegian might be the answer.  The absence of even a modicum of 
standard allows people to pass off _Patentplatt_ (i.e., essentially fake LS 
made up on the basis of German) as ligitimate varieties by using the 
language variety and language change excuses, thereby perpetuating the myth 
that LS is a type of German and therefore only needs Standard German as an 
umbrella variety.

By the way, ...

> In EFLS this would be: "säi hebbent hum angóón" meaning: "they had
> made much noise"(German: lärmen, toben, Krawall machen, randalieren).

In more general North Saxon I can think of these equivalents off the top of 
my head:

Sey hebt bannig daakt.
Sey hebt 'n rabuus' maakt.
Sey hebt asig ramenteyrd.

(These convey the idea of commotion besides noise.)

There may be better ones.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron


==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================