LL-L "Language use" 2005.07.16 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 16.JUL.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.07.15 (08) [E]

Paul, Ron,

Paul wrote:
> Perhaps speakers of various non-mainstream Lowlands dialects can help me.
> How do you feel about foreigners attempting the tongue (as opposed to, for
> example, speaking standard German or Dutch)?

and Ron:
> My prediction is that in most contexts most Low Saxon (Low German)
> speakers
> in Northern Germany would have any of the following reactions or mixtures
> thereof: astonishment, amazement, amusement and enjoyment,

I guess it depending on the special situation and circumstances. If You are
supposed to spend a more or less long time within a LS-community people will
enjoy Your attempts and they will help You to learn their tongue. They even
could be more engaged with a foreigner than with any 'normal'
High-German-speaker, because they could aspect Your attempts as a gesture of
respect for their life and language.

As I wrote earlier, in our region we have many Dutch (-Frisian) farmers, who
live among the natives for decades, partly in the third generation already.
Their first language with their German neighbours and collegues was LS, long
before they could speak an acceptable (High-)German.

As I remarked already yesterday: try to become member or friend of a
community and You will find the key for every language.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.07.15 (11) [E/Tok Pisin]

> > If you go to Papua New Guinea, and meet a man in an upscale area of
> > Port Moresby, and proceed to speak to him in Tok Pisin, there is a
> > good chance he will be insulted.
>
> E, paniman bilong longwe ples!  Yu sikibaga!  Nogat hambakim mi!  Mi man
> bilong save.  Yu go yusim nogut Tok Pisin toktok wantaim buskanaka!
>
> Funny you related that thing about Little Tokyo.  Last week I witnessed
> something very similar at one of the Japanese buffets in San Francisco's
> Japan Town.  There was a Spanish couple at the next table -- having lived 
> in
> Japan, judging by their conversation.  (OK, so I sometimes eavesdrop when 
> I
> "hear languages." So sue me!)  Anyway, the woman spoke Japanese to the
> waiters, and they looked embarrassed.  Fact is the joint was
> Taiwanese-Chinese-run, just like similar places up in Vancouver!

The difference is, this guy obviously understood what I was saying;
his response matched the query.

> > It is also true in immigrant communities.
>
> Right.  Oftentimes there seems to be the perception that your use of their
> language is a sort of invasion of their "club" or crashing their party,
> especially if they speak your language well.

I think a large part of it is that they feel like you believe they
don't speak good enough English.

This is also a reason why many people put "English" as the only
language they speak on extended census forms, for fear that adding any
other language will somehow put in government records that they can't
speak English 'well enough'.

This is a particular problem for immigrant languages, which are
generally undercounted, and Native American languages, which suffer
from a few additional problems: reservation communities are not as
well reached by the census. Many tribal members get the form, but they
do not answer for personal or political reasons. Those who do answer,
often feel that their language "doesn't count" -- that they're only
expected to write which European-origin languages they speak.

> I will only use such languages if I am absolutely sure that I know them
> better than they know English, and if I think it will improve 
> communication.
> Otherwise it may be taken as patronizing, unless I have a friendly
> understanding with someone willing to help me practise.

And certainly, in this case, the best practice is still to greet them
in English, and then if you sense they may be uncomfortable, tell them
that you can speak their language and if they would prefer you can
continue the conversation in their native language.

Mark

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.07.15 (11) [E/Tok Pisin]


Thanks for the feedback everyone.  Mark wrote:
"If you go to Papua New Guinea, and meet a man in an upscale area of
Port Moresby, and proceed to speak to him in Tok Pisin, there is a
good chance he will be insulted."

That certainly wasn't my experience in PNG overall, if you spoke genuine Tok 
Pisin.  So-called "Tok Masta", basically broken English with "-im" added to 
every verb was seen as derisive or demeaning, as it reflects a common expat 
perception that Pidgin isn't a "real language", that it's somehow baby-talk 
or bad English.  I've come across similar attitudes amongst Netherlanders to 
Afrikaans, which didn't make them many friends in South Africa.

The specific case of Port Moresby, and the Papuan coast in general, is 
rather different in that Papuans decry the steady retreat of Hiri Motu, the 
Lingua Franca of the former Papuan Territory, in the face of Tok Pisin's 
ever growing currency.  This language retains equal legal status with 
English and Pidgin as an official language, but it has far less "clout".

Papuans would generally prefer to be addressed in English if you don't speak 
Hiri Motu. But even the speakers of one of the highly inflected "true" Motu 
languages from the Moresby area were never offended by being spoken to in 
the Hiri form, whether the speaker was Papuan, expatriate or even a New 
Guinean (though very few people from outside the old Papua ever learned Hiri 
Motu).

Paul

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Hi, folks!

I assume that, compared with Hiri Motu (which is a primarily Motu-based), 
Tok Pisin (and its close relatives Pijin blong Solomon, Ailan Tok, Bislama 
and now extinct Australian pidgins and China Coast Pidgin) has the 
disadvantage of "baggage."  Firstly, there is the baggage of its direct 
association with colonialism (including some vocabulary such as _masta_ and 
_missis_ for people of European descent). Secondly, there is the preceptive 
unpleasantness of fake Tok Pisin (as reported by Paul above --  
_Patent-Pidgin_?).  Thirdly, there is the "simplicity" issue that is often 
perceived as "primitive" and "babyish."  Fourthly, there is the disadvantage 
of etymological transparency for speakers of English (native or otherwise), 
which makes English speakers aware of the Australian slang origin and also 
of the seemingly funny creation of many serious Tok Pisin words and 
expressions, something that no doubt adds to the low prestige of the 
language in "sophisticated" circles.  For example:

ruined, spoiled, worn: bagarap (< bugger up)
to ruin, to spoil: bagarapim (< to bugger up)
annoyance: hambak (< humbug)
to annoy, to tease: hambakim (< humbug)
nuisance, teaser: hambakman (< humbug + man)
loafer: lesbaga (< lazy bugger)
teaser, prankster, indolent person: sikibaga (< cheaky bugger)
to get angry: krosim (< cross)
to hold up: hansapim (< hands up!)
beard: mausgras (< mouth grass)
chocolate candy: braunpela loli (< brown fellow lolly)
condom: gumi bilong kok (figure it out yourselves!)
coward: pretman (< afraid man)
different: narakain (< another kind)
hypocrite: tumaus (< two mouth)
good friend: wantok (< one talk)
only: tasol (< that's all)
thief: stilman (< steal man)
peeping Tom: lukstilman (< look steal man)
con-man, swindler: bulsitman (< bullshit man)
who: husat (< who's that?)

By the way, I can think of another word Tok Pisin borrowed from Unserdeutsch 
(Rabaul German):

rausim 'to discard' (< German _raus_ 'out')
(now in competition with _autim_ < "out")

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: By the way, the name "pidgin" is no longer totally true in the case of 
Tok Pisin and Hiri Motu, since both of them have native speakers.

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