LL-L "Names" 2005.07.20 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 20.JUL.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.07.19 (08) [E]

> From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
> Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.07.19 (07) [E]
>
>> From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
>> Subject: Names
>>
>> Welcome back, dear Heiko, and _Hummel-Hummel_!  It's great to see you
>> again.
>>
>> I say ["hambURk] in "good" German, ["hambUIC] in Missingsch or other
>> "bad" Northern German, and ["ha:\mbOVx] in Low Saxon.  In Low Saxon I
>> say ["ma%IdebOVx] for what in German is _Magdeburg_ (["ma(:)gd at bURk],
>> but in Missingsch ["mQ:gdebUIC]), and I spell it _Maideborg_ in Low
>> Saxon.  I would never adopt the "phonetic" spelling _...borch_.  The
>> [x] or [C] pronunciations are merely allophones of final <-g>,
>> allophones by rule. When you add _-er_ you would always use <-g->
>> (_Hamborger_ ["ha%mbOVg3`], _Maideborger_ ["ma%IdebOVg3`]).
>>
>> Since Low Saxon has no standard orthography, I suggest people write
>> place names as they are pronounced in their individual dialects.  For
>> instance, in the dialect of Bielefeld they pronounce and write the
>> name of their city _Builefeild_, but I say and write _Biel(e)feld_
>> ["bi:l(e)fE%lt].
>>
>> Tschüß!
>>
>> Reinhard/Ron
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> In SAMPA % is a secondary stress marker. The half length marker is :/
>
> David Barrow
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
> Subject: Names
>
> Hi, Dave!
>
> Thanks so much for reminding me!  Why is it that I a soooo slow in
> keeping % and :/ apart?  I deserve a slap on the wrist -- but please
> only on the left wrist this week, what with my right arm currectly
> killing me.
>
> So here I go again:
>
> ***
> I say ["hambURk] in "good" German, ["hambUIC] in Missingsch or other
> "bad" Northern German, and ["ha:\mbOVx] in Low Saxon.  In Low Saxon I
> say ["ma:/IdebOVx] for what in German is _Magdeburg_ (["ma(:)gd at bURk],
> but in Missingsch ["mQ:gdebUIC]), and I spell it _Maideborg_ in Low
> Saxon.  I would never adopt the "phonetic" spelling _...borch_.  The
> [x] or [C] pronunciations are merely allophones of final <-g>,
> allophones by rule. When you add _-er_ you would always use <-g->
> (_Hamborger_ ["ha:/mbOVg3`], _Maideborger_ ["ma:/IdebOVg3`]).
>
> Since Low Saxon has no standard orthography, I suggest people write
> place names as they are pronounced in their individual dialects.  For
> instance, in the dialect of Bielefeld they pronounce and write the
> name of their city _Builefeild_, but I say and write _Biel(e)feld_
> ["bi:l(e)fE:/lt].
> ***
>
> Thanks for your patience!
>
> Reinhard/Ron

Oops,  I made a mistake as well. it's a back slash not a forward one :\
not :/ You have it right with your first word. It looks like patience
will have to go in both directions.

David

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.07.19 (07) [E]

Heiko,

> In Low Saxon I have ....
> heard
> Hamborg (with ch as in ich).

This never was LS, by no means! I presume it to be somewhere from the
South-Western Rhinelands, where people use to say 'Kirsche' (cherry) for
'Kirche' (church).

Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Names

Moyen, Jonny, myn vründ,

I don't think Heiko claimed that it was LS.  He just said that it was one of 
the pronunciations.  You are right, though, in saying that it wouldn't be 
Low Saxon (Low German).

In Hamburg Missingsch and in the German dialects derived or influenced by 
it, liquids (/r/, /l/) before [C] (<ch> as in _ich_) become [I] (<i> as in 
<nicht>); thus for instance:

Burg [bU:/IC] 'castle' (standard [bURk], LS _Borg_ [bO:/Vx])
durch [dU:/IC] 'through' (standard [dURC], LS _dörch_ [d9:/3`C])
furchtbar ["fU:/ICba:] 'terrible' (standard ["fURCtba:R], LS ---)
Milch [me:/IC] 'milk' (standard [mIlC], LS _Melk_ [mE:/lk])
welch [vE:/IC] 'which' (standart [vElC], LS _welk_ [vE:/k]
but:
welk [vE:/lk] ~ [vE:/Ik] 'withered' (standard [vElk], LS ---)

In case it doesn't show in your font, _Milch_ and _welch_ have a lax "i" in 
the non-standard forms and the standard forms have an "l" as in "lift" 
before the final consonant.  In the case of _welk_, Missingsch _et al._ have 
variation between "l" as in "lift" and a lax "i".  So there's something 
going on with palato-velars.

(Dave, I think I got the SAMPA half-length right this time, and I hope you 
are duly proud of me.)

I have an unrelated question.  Is the surname Wells related to Scottish 
Welsh and Walsh (which, as we learned, denote "Welsh" but frequently became 
the name of Flemings that had emigrated first to Wales and then to 
Scotland)?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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