LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.07.20 (07) [E/Missingsch]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.07.20 (06) [E]


In our Standard Dutch "een stroom" is a river that mouths in the sea. So de 
Schelde, de Maas and de IJzer are the only stromen in Belgium.

Diederik Masure

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.07.20 (06) [E]

Dear Ron, Heiko,

indeed- there may have been something between LS 'Stroum' and LS 'Beek'. In
some names of locations down here You may find 'Fluth' ('Oulenfluth',
'Groutenfluth'- E: 'old flood','great flood'; never in the marshlands, but
on the sorrounding LS/G: 'Geest', meaning E: 'dry lands' [specially
explanation for our British friends interested in LS :-)]), and I often
suspected it to be any elder version of G: 'Fluss'. Reading some textes
written in  Middlesaxon I didn't find it verified.

And so- I'm not sure at all, and I should never dare to use 'Fluth' instead
of the correct 'Stroum'. But- at the end I've got a problem with the Sassic
spelled 'Stroom'. It's not pronounced like this, and clearly off-roots.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.07.20 (06) [E]

Ron, Heiko,

in addition to my last: I just remembered LS: 'Au', (deriving I guess from
Latin: 'aqua' OHG: 'aar[e], French: 'eau') which one could be the looked
-for.
Something like this I read anywhere, and near my home we have a little river
named this way.

But, Heiko, let Ron make a decision. He COULD be capable and willing to put
his hand into this hot fire :-)!

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.07.20 (06) [E]

Keiko wrote:

> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
> Subject: Fluss vs. Stroom
>
>
> What are your ideas about Stroom. How big does a river have to be, in
> oder to
> deserve being a "Stroom", and what is below. Is there anything between
> "Stroom" and "Beek"? Are there dialect differences? I was surprised
> that the
> Mecklenborg dictionary does not list Stroom, but maybe they are too
> far away
> from rivers that are "Stroom"s?

I had a look into Winter´s 'Neues hochdeutsches-plattdeutsches
Wörterbuch': "Fluß wie hd. - Spez schmalerWasserlauf Bäk f., Lop m."
My opinion to this topic: I think it is a hierarchy of waters. The
'Beek' flows to the 'Fluß', the 'Fluß' flows to the 'Stroom'. the
'Stroom' flows to the ocean.
And for me there seems to be just a smaller water like the 'Beek',
that´s the 'Au(e)', which collects the water from the woods, forests and
meadows and flows to the 'Beek' or 'Beke' or 'Bäk(e)'.

Kind regards
Utz H. Woltmann

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From: Reuben Epp <reuben at silk.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.07.20 (06) [E]

> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
> Subject: Fluss vs. Stroom
>
> for High-German "Fluss" my dictionaries tell me two different things
> 1) Stroom (Sass)
> 2) Fluss (Hermann-Winter, Mecklenborg)
> Are there dialect differences?

> Heiko Evermann
> Hamburg, Germany

Reuben Epp <reuben @silk.net> replies:

According to Preussisches Wörterbuch by Erhard Riemann,
the following terminology applied in Kreis Goldap, East
Prussia.

Listed under Fliess: Ein Fluss heisst 'de Fleet,' ein kleiner
Fluss 'dat Fleetke,' ein Strom 'e groote Fleet.'

Reuben Epp

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.07.20 (02) [E]

Ron wrote:

> furchtbar ["fU:/ICba:] 'terrible' (standard ["fURCtba:R], LS ---)

Tach auch,

djarses! Ischa wohl nich die Möglichkeit! Wi seggt in LS dato 'gräsig'
un in uns Missingsch auch. Un in Missingsch is 'furchtbar' auch gar nich
so 'terrible'. Da kannscha sag´n: " Sie hab´n sich furchtbar lieb".
Dascha mehr so as 'orntlich' oder 'tüchtig', nich? So´n büschen mehr
'terrible' in Missingsch is denn 'sich gräsig gehabt hab´n'. Zieh, so is
dat! Muß ein ja mal betulich über reden, nich! Da muß ein fein auf hör´n.

Grüße
Utz H. Woltmann

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Lexicon

Jonny (above):

> in addition to my last: I just remembered LS: 'Au', (deriving I guess from
> Latin: 'aqua' OHG: 'aar[e], French: 'eau') which one could be the looked
> -for.

*From* Latin?  Not *related* to Latin _aqua_?

As for _Au(e)_, Old German has _ouwa_ and _auja_ (assumedly in dialectical 
variation), and _Au_ is derived from these.  Old Saxon has rare occurrence 
of _oia_.  If this had survived, I would expect Modern LS (North Saxon) 
(*oje >) *_ooj_ or (*aje >) *_aaj_, perhaps *_aa_ (as in Scandinavian).  I 
therefore conclude that _Au_ is a German loan.

Likewise, _Fluss_ *must* be a German loanword in LS.  Otherwise it would be 
*_vlout_ (<Floot>).  It could also be the cognate of _vleyt_ (<Fleet>), 
analogous to G _Guss_ = LS _geyt_, or it could be *_vloet_ (<Flööt>), 
analogous to G _Nuss_ = LS _noet_ (<Nööt>).  I suspect that some dialects 
adopted _Fluss_ to conform to mainstream German perception, since LS 
_stroom_ and _beek_ seem to reflect different perception.

Tach, Utz!

Schöön må wiedä 'm büschn Missingsch zu "höän", wenn man auch bloß soich 
fuichbåres Bremä Missingsch.  Och, nee!  Ich mein žå einklich "fuichbå 
schönes Bremä Missingsch".  Iä snackt žå so 'm büschn komisch, åbä då könnt 
Iä žå einklich nix füä.  So gehöät Iä žå.

In Hambuich kamman auch "gresich" sågn, åbä so oft brauchn wiä das einklich 
nich.  "Fuichbå" is noamål un auch rejellä.  Das kann må schlecht un denn žå 
auch må wiedä gut sein, genauso wie "terrible" auf englisch:

He's in a terrible mood today.
Ä hat heude 'ne fuichbåre Laune.

But I'm actually terribly fond of him.
Åbä ich mach ihn žå einklich fuichbå gäne.

So, mein liebä, jungä Bremä Stadtmusikant, jetz habbich Dich erwischt.  Jetz 
kanns auch gleich må den Zaunkönich innas Bremä Missingsch übäsetzn.  Denn 
fühl ich mich nich meä so einsåm middie einßige Missingsch-Veržoon vonnie 
Geschichte
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=missingsch).

Denn må ßu!

Tschüüß!

Kumpelmenten!
Reinhard/Ron

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