LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.22 (03) [B/E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi Þjóðríkr!

You wrote:

> To Mr. Hellinckx: is d'afkomst van "vlietig" dezelfste as die van 't
> Algemië Neiderlaans wourd "vlijtig" oef ni?

I don't mind you calling me Luc at all, Þjóðríkr...quite the contrary
;-) ..."meniër klink zoe staëf è?"

Nope...they have different ancestors. Moreover, the origins of "vlijtig"
have not been unearthed yet. I mean, so far, non-Germanic relatives
haven't been found...to my knowledge. It would have been very awkward to
derive Brabantish _vlietig_ from _vlijtig_, if you take into account
that Dutch *ij* /usually/ (read 99.99% of the time) sounds like *aë*
here. There's only two exceptions to that rule:

1) nanny-word "bieterkes" = "bijterkes" (denoting the teeth of a baby)
2) "iever" = "ijver", "diligence"(E)

> I think beek/bekr/... in English has changed to beach. (with the ch
> because it's an old i-stem, baki-)

Re "beach", my Oxford dictionary, says it might be cognate with Dutch
"beek". The latter has become "beck" in English, quite often found in
place-names. In some English dialects it would still be in use today,
meaning "brook". Maybe too much confusion arose, having both the words
"beck" and "back"? So I wonder if there's any place in England or
Scotland where the word "back" never made ground?!? Maybe over there,
"beck" still abounds?

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.21 (12) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Utz, folks,
>
> Consider also this:
>
> Russian: божья коровка _božja korovka_ ("godly cow")
> Bulgarian: божа кравица _boža kravica_ ("godly cow")
> Serbo-Croatian: božja ovčica ("godly black sheep")
>
> I wrote earlier:

West Frisian has "ingeltsje" for this, i.e. "little angel".
It seems to have inspired a lot of religious thought :)

Freonlike groetenis!

Henno Brandsma

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Etymology

Hi all,

Utzele asked: What?s the hell is the relationship of a bug to God or The
Lord?

As I wrote earlier, the South African Maik?fer are good bugs that destroy 
aphids from our fruit trees and ornamentals, so I can only assume that the 
naming relates to believing that the good little bugs are from God, as 
creator of all.

Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Haai, Elsie!

The critter we're talking about is _Marienkäfer_, not _Maikäfer_.  Those are
two different bugs.

Interesting, though, that you would say that, because when I was a child (or
better to say, when I began being a child ...) we kids in our neighborhood
referred to ladybugs as _Maikäfer_, only said _Marienkäfer_ when we actually
had to distinguish the two, as though _Marienkäfer_ was a scientific name.
I wonder if this was a neighborhood-specific thing or if other people did
this as well.

This is similar to elderberry bushes being referred to as _vleyder_
(<Fleder>) in many Low Saxon dialects and also as _Flieder_ in northern
German dialects, the same name as that for lilac.  In "proper" German,
elderberry bushes are referred to as _Holunder_ (dialectically as _Holder_,
_Holler_, _Hollerbusch_ etc., related to Frau Holle, all about pre-Christian
beliefs -- and we've chewed through this one several times before).

Back to ladybugs ... I wonder what's behind all those references to cows and
sheep.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.21 (12) [E]

Luc wrote:
> We call a ladybird an "ons-lie-vraa-bisjke" here in Brabant. Clearly <
> "onze-lieve-vrouw-beestje". So no referral to Jesus Christ, but rather
> to his mother.

All I know is that this cute little fellow, also called "Herrgottsschäfchen"
in some German regions, has been considered as consecrated to Mary since the
Middle Ages at least. Rumour has it that she "sent" these critters to combat
aphids and save the crops. Well, there are some years, not very often (I've
seen it happen once in my lifetime) when the population suddenly explodes
and you can't walk anywhere in the grass or on the beach for fear of
crushing a dozen beetles with each step... so if this happened to occur in a
bad crop year after fervent prayers to Mary (I always wondered how the whole
Mary cult goes with the First Commandment), it is easy to explain how people
might have made a connection.

Those beetles were said to be able to ward of witches and all kinds of
disaster. To this day, it is considered very bad luck to kill a ladybird, or
even to shake one off its leaf.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.21 (06) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Paul Finlow Bates: I think beek/bekr/... in English has changed to
> beach. (with the ch because it's an old i-stem, baki-)<

Thats what the ODEE suggests - with the original meaning being shingle /
pebbles

I can confirm that our local  farms here in Worcestershire have /had yards
cobbled with pebbles, some quite large, picked up from local streams - even
though we are miles from the sea.
They were brought here and deposited in the last Ice Age by the glaciers.
When we are walking the Saxon boundaries I like to bring a couple of
specimens home to add to the pile I dug out stone by stone from my now
vegetable garden, but which previously had been a cattle yard.

What is interesting is that many of our streams locally are designated bece
in the Saxon charters. I wonder whether they had that significanace because
of the amount of pebble/cobble/shingle in them?

Heather

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.21 (08) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Let's assume for a moment that "borderland" (*_mearce_) did not apply to
the
English context<

Well it certainly applied AFTER they had come because even today the area
from Chester to the Severn Estuary i.e. the Welsh border  is known as the
Marches - Marcher country - ruled from Ludlow by the Marcher Lord.

Heather

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LLL: Language competency


Got good news (well, not very good, but it's something at least ;)) for that
man from Drenthe who mourned for "hosen" that was being replaced by
kousen/sokken.
The word continues to live on in standard Dutch too! (although hidden well)
Laarzen (boots) < leerzen < lederhozen, where the socks-meaning is obvious,
rather than trousers.

Diederik Masure

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Leeve Lowlanners,

(English below)

güstern hevv ick weller 'n nieget LS-Woord höört: _hinseln_
Is heel kompelzeert tou verkloorn, man- ick will 't woll versöken.

In uns Rebeed givvt dat noch dennen oulen Bruuk, wat de Nobern een'
Minschen, de doud bleven is, in siin Saarg tou 'n Karkhoff dreegen dout. (De
Lüüd ward no een heel viegeliinsche Oort uutmeekelt; kann un will ick nu
liekers ne al'ns verkloorn.)

No dat Begreevnis givv 't denn jo dennen Liekenkoffie, un' de Dreegers
kriigt een eygen Disch in een anner Stuuv. Sei kriegt ook düchdig stebig
Eeten, wieldes de annern Truergest man alleen Botterkoken un' Koffie kriegen
dout.

Wenn nu een van de Sargdreegers dissen Ehr'ndeenst tou 'n eersten Mol mookt
hett, mutt he bi dat Eeten een' Snaps för sien Kollegen uutdoun, und dat
heet _hinseln_.

Froog an de Experten: wo schall dit Woord woll van affkomen? Schull dat woll
mit 'Seel', G: 'Seele', E: 'soul' wat tou kriegen hebben? Schull man dat
vielleicht 'hinseel[e]n' schrieven?
Or schull dat woll van G: 'haenseln', E: 'to tease' affkomen? Heet liekers
op LS normool 'toosen', 'taasen'.

Gifft dat annerwärts verwandte, lieke or ähnliche Wöör? Ook dit Bruukdoum,
wat de Noberschopp dreegen deiht?

(English version)

Dear Lowlanders,

yesterday I learned another new word in our LS-dialect: _hinseln_.
It's very difficile to explain it, but let me try.

In our region we still have the old tradition, that a dead member of the
community will be carried to the cemetery by special neighbours. ( They get
elected after a very complicated system I do not want to explain here.)

After the mourning ceremony some coffee and cakes are offered to the
condolating  people, but the carriers get a good, rich meal in a separated
room.

If now one of these carriers had done his honorary job for the first time he
has to donate some alcoholic drinks to his collegues during the meal. This
custom is called _hinseln_.

My question to all the experts on this list: where do You guess this word to
originate from? Should it be related to LS: 'Seel', G: 'Seele, E: 'soul'?
Should it better be written 'hinseel[e]n'?
Or could it be cognate with G: 'haenseln', E: 'to tease', which in LS
normally is 'toosen', 'taasen'?

Are there any related, similar or even identical words in Your languages?
Does anyone know this kind of tradition that neighbours have to carry the
coffin?

Thanks in forward for Your kindly answers.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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