LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.23 (04) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 23.JUL.2005 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: Low Saxon: Klöör vs. Farv

Moin tosamen,

I have some questions concerning the LS words Klöör and Farv:

HG: High German
LS: Low Saxon

Sass translates HG Farbe => LS Farv/Klöör
and HG farbig => farvig. In LS=>HG also: klöört => HG farbig.
so here Klöör and Farv seem to be interchangeable

Harte: HG Farbe => LS Farv, Klöör
Lindow: LS Farv => HG Farbe, Farbstoff
Lindow: LS Klöör => HG Farbe, Farbtönung, Farbe im Kartenspiel
Hermann-Winter (Mecklenborg) HG Farbe => LS Farf. Klöör is not listed, not
even in the LS=>HG part

Neuber (Dithmarschen)
HG Farbe (Material) => LS Farv
HG Farbe (Eigenschaft), Farbtönung=> Klöör

Dutch (Langenscheid) lists
Farbe => Kleur
and has Dutch Verf => Lack

Now my questions are:
1) Is there a general distinction in Low Saxon between Farv and Klöör with
Farv = material (paint)
Klöör = color  (like in blue light, red light etc)? Two of my dictionaries
list this difference, two don't.
Is this a regional difference? Is the distinction strict? Or does it depend 
on
the speaker?

2) And if so: since when is this distinction made? Klöör looks like an 
Import
from French. Is Farv an original word or an import from High German?

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann
Hamburg, Germany

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Heiko!

Now, that's an interesting question whose answer seems simple to me on the 
surface but may well bring up a string of more complex questions.  I'll get 
the ball rolling, briefly ... I hope.

In my own use and understanding, _varv'_ (<Farv> [fa::/v]) usually denotes 
'paint', and _kloyr_ (<Klöör> [kl9:/V], Lower Elbe <Kleur> [klO:/IV]) 
usually denotes 'color', in some contexts 'shade (of color)', 'hue'. 
_Kloyr_ can *never* denote 'paint', but _varv'_ may in some contexts and in 
some folks' dialects denote 'color' (but not 'shade (of color)', 'hue').

While I usually observe the simple separation, I may on rare occasions use 
_varv'_ to mean 'color', such as for the sake of rhyme or other sound 
effects in poetry.

The difference between 'color' and 'shade of color' (or 'tone') or 'hue'. 
only really arises when you translate and need to make a choice.  For 
instance, in one of my translations from Chinese poetry the phrase _... wou 
veel kloyren in de harvsttyd-wulken ..._ (_... wouvääl Klöörn in de 
Harfsttietwulken ..._ '... how many "kloyren" in de autumn clouds ..._).  I 
would probably use "shades (of color)" if I translated it into English.

Obviously, _kloyr_ is a relatively recent French loan (though Old Norse does 
have _kôlorr_).  The questions is if this sort of lexical/semantic 
separation is similarly recent.  Old Saxon uses two words, and both of these 
seem to be able to express 'paint': _blî_, _farwî_.  _Blî_ is identical with 
the word for 'lead', and I assume the meaning 'paint' is derived from the 
meaning 'lead', because paints were often made from lead.  (I am not aware 
of a modern dialect that uses _bly_ <Blie> in the sense of 'paint'.)  I am 
fairly confident that _farwî_ denotes 'color', but I do not know if it can 
also mean 'paint' and if _blî_ can also mean 'color'.  So I add these 
questions to yours.

My theory is that _blî_ always meant 'paint', and _farwî_ meant 'color', 
'shade of color', 'hue' as well as 'coloring' and 'dye'.  _Biwellan_ means 
'to color' or 'to dye' (from _wel_ 'well', 'good', 'fine', I assume, thus 
"to improve," "to pretty up"), and _mâlon_ means 'to paint' (from _mâl_ 
'token', 'sign', 'target', 'picture', 'painting'). So there seems to have 
been, at least initially, a semantic separation between painting and dying, 
were "dye" spawned "color."

Old Frisian:
   blî: paint (color?)
   ferwe: color (paint?)
   ferwa: to color, to dye

Old German:
   mâlizzi: paint (color?)
   farawa, farawî:  color (paint?)
   (gi)farawen: to color, to dye

Gothic:
   farwa: color (paint?)

Old English:
   blîoh:  paint (color?)
   dêag: dye (color?)
   dîegan: to dye

Old Norse seems to have a very different thing going on.

The group represented by _varv'_, _verf_, _Farbe_, etc., goes back to 
Indo-European *_perk^-_ 'multi-colored', 'motley', 'spotted' (cf. Greek 
περκνός _perknós_, Sanskrit पॄश्निः _pŕśnih_, both with the same meaning).

"Hue" comes from Old English _hîew_ ~ _hîw_ ~ _hîow_ ~ _hîu_ ~ _hêo_, 
originally meaning 'appearance', 'form', 'shape' (cf., Gothic 
_hiwi_'appearance', 'form', 'show', Sanskrit चवि _chavi_ 'hide', 'skin', 
'complexion', 'skin color', 'color', 'beauty', 'splendour').

Heiko, I know this is more information than you had asked for, but I am 
anticipating etymological questions to be raised by others, so I've started 
the ball rolling.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:
Reminder to everyone:
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