LL-L "Orthography" 2005.07.25 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUL.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Dave Singleton <davidsin at pt.lu>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.07.24 (06) [E]

Moiën alleguer,

It seems to me to be typically short sighted island stubborness with all
parties.
Why on earth do they fight BEFORE they have got the money --- if they
fight after they have the money at least someone will benefit !! and
they can HELP their language !!!!
Lëtzebuergesch has had free spelling for some very long time -- people
still spell it as they feel (sometimes phontically sometimes not) -- it
may be postulated that the period of free spelling has helped the
language to survive until now, where similar discussions (some warmer
than others) are taking place over spelling and grammar. These
discussion are, however, based on the necessity of supplying school
books and the like.
There are some 450,000 people in this land which is merely 75km by 45km
'ish however it has a richness of diversity in the intonation and
dialect of the spoken word that gives one pleasure every day.
I would invite the people in Cornwall to build a relationship not a
confrontation about the money UNTIL they have got the support the so
dearly need.

If I have made the wrong assumptions about anything in this article I
give my apologies to those who feel they deserve them.
Lowlands-L wrote:

> From: "Daniel Prohaska" <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
> Subject: "spelling wars" (Cornish)
>
>>> From:  "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-
>>> support.be>
>>> Subject:  spelling wars (Cornish)
>>
>
>>> Read today on the website of the Guardian.
>>> Regards, Roger
>>
>
> Thanks, Roger, for this article.
>
I second the thanks to Roger for showing us this titbit !

Dave Singleton

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.07.24 (01) [E]


I saw the Guardian article on Cornish on Saturday. It doesn't really tell 
anyone anything that isn't already well known.

Criostóir.

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.07.24 (06) [E]


Although the Cornish language debate is not directly related to Lowlandic, I 
think subscribers interested in orthographical debates (e.g., Low Saxon) 
would get something from it, so I will post this here.

Dan Prohaska wrote in relation to Cornish:
"Yes, I can definitely see that heating the debate even more. There is a 
distinct anti-intellectual bias within the revival in Cornwall. If they 
don't like what the panel decides they're not going to follow through with 
the advice."

I think that's a bit unfair. In my experience it is less a case of 
"institutional anti-intellectualism" and more a case of basic stubbornness. 
Why should learners or speakers shift their usages just to accomodate the 
latest 'important' revision by Nicholas Williams, Hecka Gendall, Ken George 
or anyone else?

"I think agreeing on a pronunciation [k at r'nu. at k] would already be a big step 
forward. I think you can leave it up to the individual to choose his or her 
spelling. The above variants don't even reflect so much difference in 
pronunciation, but assigning graphemes to the identified phonemes."

The most common spelling across variants, and the one I would say is most 
easily recognised, is "Kernewek" and, in any case, the pronunciation is the 
same in most cases, as you have shown above.

"The KK people with a few open minded exceptions blocked this idea before it 
was fleshed out."

I don't want this to turn into an anti-KK rant, but I think it's fair to say 
the revival movement was in a lot better blood before KK came about. Even 
today proponents of Unified, UCR and Modern Cornish have better relations 
than any have with proponents of KK. KK is rightly discouraged as "Cornic".

"UC was basically a normalisation of the written Middle Cornish texts. There 
were a couple of phonemic contrasts overlooked, however these were 
orthographically blurred in Middle Cornish. As a normalisation the variety 
is valid."

UC is like trying to reconstruct the English of Johnson using a synthesis of 
Shakespeare and Chaucer. But its popularity speaks for itself, and I have no 
intrinsic problem with it, as much as I prefer Modern Cornish.

"This variety [MC], though I personally believe it is not ideal as a base 
for revived Cornish from an orthographical point of view, offers very useful 
insights into the pronunciation of spoken Cornish."

You are right that the English-based orthography of MC is not ideal. However 
MC is, in and of itself, a far more authentic variety than UC, because it is 
basically the language as it was last spoken in the eighteenth and 
nineteenth centuries (and therefore includes minor breakdown of the 
mutational system in some places and other 'imperfections').

Compare UC "gwlas" (land, country) with MC "gollaz", for instance. UC 
"gwlas" simply adapts Welsh "gwlad" to Cornish phonology, whereas "gollaz" 
(or "gollas" if you prefer) is its authentic development in Cornish from 
South West British, and how it was pronounced. It has a different mutation, 
"wollas", too, which makes reference to an ancient form *gwalas or *gwlas 
but which is not beholden to it. UC is imprisoned by etymological reference 
to Welsh and Breton, in an attempt to create a perfect uber-Brythonic 
Cornish that probably never existed. (Hence the rather silly neologisms, 
such as "pellgowser" for "telephone".)

But these are just points of disagreement - I do not dislike UC or UCR, and 
understand both.

"I wonder how he was able to make this assessment."

Proponents of KK often said Cornish was dying and that only KK could save 
it.

"Actually I find it quite disturbing that the head of the strategy group 
would actively back one variety. The chair ought to be expressing a kind of 
balanced perspective. I think the revival is at an orthographical impasse, 
basically a return to the pre 1996 stage - before UCR arrived on the horizon 
as the short flag of hope to overcome the stalemate that existed then. UCR
has been rejected by the KK camp though Modern (RLC) users were more open to
the possibility of accepting it."

Since its creation KK has always managed to occupy the positions of power 
within the language movement. How exactly - considering it is laughed at in 
academia and not well liked in large parts of Cornwall - I do not know. I 
don't agree that UCR was a saviour of anything. It created another variety 
to complicate the mix. People who were ! raised with UC either don't know 
about UCR, don't care about it - in any case most I know do not use it.

"What I think a strategy group needs to do is ascertain the common ground.
Where the orthographies and the theory behind them match and where
compromises can be found. Each group will have to give in a little."

I don't mind that. I would like a Brythonic orthography for MC. But the 
problem comes with KK, because its proponents have so much to lose in giving 
any.

"The other option is to say that Cornish does not have a standardised
orthography and that it's basically everyone for him-/herself."

Not ideal, but that is the situation that pertains at present. Cornish is 
understandable whichever orthography is used in any case.

"They are making all the forward looking suggestions while the KK people are
clinging to their phonemic reconstruction which may or may not be (more or
less) correct."

That phonemic "reconstruction" has created too many problems.

"What I would like to see is a variety, that... - continues the orthographic 
traditions of the later Middle Cornish period; - looks to all periods of 
Cornish for information on the development of the language; - uses a 
pronunciation fitting a time scale between 1500 and 1650..."

Why 1500 and 1650?

"I think the best use for the money would be a Cornish dictionary project
that gives all the attested spellings of all the Cornish words found in the
texts, place names, dialects survivals etc. plus all forms of Revived
Cornish used. Each group always makes its own dictionary. It would be good
to unify the movement in one common dictionary and have all the spellings in
front of your nose at the same time."

I think the best use for any monies would be the strengthening of existing 
and establishment of new Cornish-medium pre-school units and primary 
schools. I went to school in Cornwall and never got the opportunity to learn 
my ethnic tongue there. Dictionaries don't help those who never learnt.

Criostóir.

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