LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.28 (08) [D/E/LS/German]

Thu Jul 28 20:56:35 UTC 2005

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.07.28 (06) [E]

I don't know if you're wrong, since I don't live in Germany, but this
usage of "alle" reminded me of "al" meaning <finished>, <ready>, <enough>
etc. in the Dutch of the so-called Indos or Indo-Europeans, i.e. the
people of mixed Indonesian and Dutch background of which about half a
million came to Holland in the 1940's and 1950's, when Nederlandsch Indië
("Dutch India") became independent as Indonesia.
This "al" seems to be used the same way as Malay (Indonesian) "sudah".
But I can hardly imagine that Northern German "alle" has some direct
relationship with this.
Ingmar

Reyn schreev:
>_Alle_ ("all") in the sense of "finished," "gone" or "empty" is one of the
>first words a North German child learns, or used to learn.  You show the
>little one the empty cup or plate after drinking or eating and say _Alle!_
>until the child learns to say it.  I take it this is northern-specific.
>Or am I wrong?

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology

Beste Jonny,

You wrote:

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
> Dag ook, Lüüd,
> (English below)
>
> bi't Rosenmey'n vannomiddag is mi eyn Tohouphang infull'n, no dennen
> ick all
> lang söcht haar. Hett mit uns' lytt' _wren_ to doun.
>
> In uns LS-Munn'oort hevvt wi dennen 'Freen', E: 'fence, hedge', G:
> 'Einfriedung, (Grenz-)Zaun', un door van affkoymstig 'Free'groov', E:
> 'bordering ditch', G: 'Grenzgraben, Friedegraben'.
> Schall woll verwandt ween an G: 'Frieden' (Fränkisch' Heerkoomst??).
> Man- alleyn de lytt _wren_ hett hier eyn annern Nomen ('Tuunkoynik')
> kreygen!
>
> Oppe anner Siid fin' ick in't Ingelte dyt 'Freen' (ouk as Verbum bruukt,-
> man denn heyt dat E:'wedding' :-)!) naarms meyr- ellers givvt dat noch
> jichenswo jichenseyn Woord van dyssen Stamm?
>
> English:
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> mowing the lawn this afternoon I got an idea for a matter I had been
> looking
> for since a time. Has to do with our little _wren_.
>
> In our regional dialect of LS we have 'Freen', E: 'fence, hedge', G:
> 'Einfriedung, (Grenz-)Zaun', and related 'Free'groov', E: 'bordering
> ditch',
> G: 'Grenzgraben, Friedegraben'.
> I guess it cognate with G: 'Frieden' (E: 'peace'); perhaps from
> Frankonian
> origin?
> But- our little _wren_ got a different name ('Zaunkönig')!
>
> On the other hand, and that's what I'm curious about, I don't find this
> 'Freen' (also used as a verbum, but then in the meant of 'wedding'
> :-)!) in
> English- or is there anywhere left any word from this stem?

Kluge has the following for resp. Friede(n), einfrieden, Bergfried and
Friedhof:

Friede(n)
Friede(n)SmSubstantiv Maskulinum std.Standardwortschatz (8. Jh.), mhd.
vride, ahd. fridu, as. fridu Stammwort. Aus g. *friTu- m. "Friede", auch
in anord. fridr, ae. friT m./n., afr. fretho, gt. in gafridon
"versöhnen" (sonst ist "Friede" gt. gawairTi). Ein tu-Abstraktum zu der
in frei vorliegenden Grundlage ig. *pri-, die von "nahe, bei" ausgeht.
Friede müßte demnach ungefähr das "Beieinandersein" im Sinne von "das
gegenseitige Behandeln wie innerhalb der Sippe" sein. Adjektiv:
friedlich; Verben: befrieden, befriedigen. Zur Bedeutungsverzweigung s.
frei, freien, Freund. Eine Nebenbedeutung "umgeben, schützen" in um-,
einfrieden.
Ebenso nndl. vrede, nschw. fred, nisl. fridur. S. auch Friedhof, zufrieden.
 Scheller (1959), 113f.;
HWPh 2 (1972), 1114-1119;
Tiefenbach (1973), 56-60;
Grundbegriffe 2 (1975), 543-591;
LM 4 (1989), 919-921;
Röhrich 1 (1991), 476;
Sousa-Costa (1993), 193-197;
RGA 9 (1995), 594-596.  gemeingermanisch iz

einfrieden
einfrieden(einfriedigen)  Vswschwaches Verb "umzäunen" erw.erweiterter
Standardwortschatz obs.obsolet (15. Jh.)Stammwort. Zu mhd. vride
"Umzäunung" (Friedhof). Die mittelhochdeutsche Form ist bevriden.
 LM 3 (1986), 1734-1736;
RGA 7 (1989), 10-20.

Bergfried
BergfriedSmSubstantiv Maskulinum "fester Turm" per.peripherer Wortschatz
fach.fachsprachlich (12. Jh.), mhd. ber(c)vrit, bervride mit der älteren
Bedeutung "hölzernes Turmgerüst, das an die Mauern einer belagerten
Stadt geschoben wird"  Volksetymologie. Ähnliche Ausdrücke mit ähnlichen
Bedeutungen in anderen mittelalterlichen Sprachen (etwa ml. berfredum
n., belfredus, berfredus usw. afrz. berfroi). Das Wort ist also durch
Sekundärmotivation an Berg und Friede(n) (oder einfrieden) angeschlossen
worden, seine Herkunft ist unklar. Lautlich anklingend und etymologisch
klar wäre das von Götze angeführte mgr. *pYrgos phorEtos "Tragturm von
Elefanten" (zu gr. phérein "tragen"), das aber nicht belegt zu sein
scheint. (Bezeugt ist gr. pYrgos in der Bedeutung "Tragturm,
Belagerungsturm").
Ebenso ne. belfry. Zur Sippe von gr. phérein "tragen" s. Metapher.
 Götze, A. BGDSL 59 (1935), 316f.;
Lloyd/Springer 1 (1988), 556-558;
LM 1 (1980), 1840 (Belfried).   ?

Friedhof
FriedhofSmSubstantiv Maskulinum std.Standardwortschatz (9. Jh., Form 16.
Jh.), mhd. vrIthof, ahd. frIthof m./n.(?), as. frIdhof Stammwort.
Ursprünglich "Vorhof, eingefriedetes Grundstück" zu ahd. frIten "hegen",
gt. freidjan "schonen". In ungestörter Entwicklung wäre nhd. Freithof zu
erwarten gewesen, was auch tatsächlich regional bezeugt ist; doch ist
das Wort als Bezeichnung des Kirchhofs an Friede angeglichen worden
durch das Verständnis als "Immunitätsland": Die öffentlichen Beamten
hatten kein Eingriffsrecht auf dem Friedhof - entsprechendes gilt für
das gleiche Wort als Orts- und Hofbezeichnung. Ahd. frIten gehört zu der
Sippe von frei, freien, Freund und Friede(n) mit der Sonderbedeutung
"hegen, schonen, pflegen". Unmittelbar zugrunde liegt das Adjektiv g.
*frIda- "gepflegt, schön" in anord. fridr, ae. friT, außergermanisch
vergleichbar ist ai. prItá-, Partizip zu ai. prInati. frei.
 Scheller (1959), 114-117;
Kretschmer (1969), 275-278;
LM 4 (1989), 923-930;
Ilisch, P. NW 30 (1990), 103-18;
RGA 9 (1995), 610-613.  deutsch s. Friede, s. Hof

De Vries makes an interesting comment:

Bevredigen, afgeleid van /vrede/; volgens oudgerm. opvatting heerste
vrede binnen een bepaald omschreven gebied of gemeenschap (bijv. van de
familie) en werd in gevallen, waar zij opzettelijk ingesteld werd (de
vrede op de dingvergadering), door een (sacrale) omheining of draad
symbolisch aangeduid.

Apart from the English proper name "Fred(dy)" (becoming popular in 18th
century England through the princes of Hannover, eg. "Frederic, prince
of Wales"), I didn't find any present-day survivors of this stem though.

'Freen' in the sense of "to wed", is the same as Dutch 'vrijen' (whose
present participle, "Partizipialbildung", became "vriend" (D), "friend"
(E), "Freund" (G))...all < "free" (E), and ultimately "frei" (G) and
"Friede(n)" (G) are related indeed.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.07.25 (11) [E]

Re: the use of Top!
Ron, I have never used that. The closest I can come to that is the word
"puik" This can be used in the sense of Excelllent!, but is also used to
describe good quality as in "puike waren" (merchandise of good quality)
As far as the whales, I'll have to wait until my sister gets here towards
the end of August......., but as my Grandfather used to say "Das dicke Ende
komt nach"!.... Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar, Lowlanders,

Don't you think this connection between "all (done/gone/said)" and
"finished," and "finished" with "exhausted."  So this is likely to be
coincidence.

Jacqueline:

> The closest I can come to that is the word "puik" This can be used in the
> sense of Excelllent!, but is also used to describe good quality as in
> "puike
> waren" (merchandise of good quality)

This must be related to Low Saxon _puyk_ (<püük> [py:k]) 'proper', 'clean',
'neat', 'spruce', 'trim', 'natty', etc.  It is contained in _puyk-vayn_
(<püükfein>) 'proper', 'posh'  (_vayn_ 'posh' being a German loan
contrasting with native _vyn_ <fien> [fi:n] 'fine', 'delicate', 'thin').
German has _piekfein_ in the same sense, but does not have _piek_ by itself
(though the noun _Pieke_ 'pointed instrument', 'pike', and these seem
suspiciously Low Saxon, for otherwise I'd expect *_Peike_).  I wonder if
this _puik_ = _puyk_ = _*piek_ is related to English "peak" (= point, top),
which in English is known only since the 16th century (Lowlands loan?) and
appears to be related to both "pike" and "beak."  (This is a complex one!)

> As far as the whales, I'll have to wait until my sister gets here towards
> the end of
> August......., but as my Grandfather used to say "Das dicke Ende komt
> nach"!

Yeah, no pun intended, I'm sure.  Will you sister come from the old country?
If so, she'll probably be enthralled by the scenery and the experience.  I
hope you'll have loads of fun.  I went kayaking among the San Juan Islands
with my brother (from Germany), and he's still talking about it about twelve
years later.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.07.28 (05) [E]

> Utz had responded to Jonny's question about _uut_ and Missingsch _aus_
> ("out") in the sense of "finished," "exhausted."  So in his (Bremen)
> and my (Hamburg) Missingsch "to be _alle_" ("all") means to be
> finished/exhausted," also "to be bushed/nackert(sp?)" in England
> English, "to be wasted" in American English (not in the sense of
> "drunk").  Yesterday I remembered that we also use Missingsch _aus un
> alle_, from Low Saxon _uut un al_ ("out and all") to mean "all gone"
> or "all/totally exhausted," also meaning "finito," "that's the end of
> that."
>
> _Alle_ ("all") in the sense of "finished," "gone" or "empty" is one of
> the first words a North German child learns, or used to learn.  You
> show the little one the empty cup or plate after drinking or eating
> and say _Alle!_ until the child learns to say it.  I take it this is
> northern-specific.  Or am I wrong?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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