LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (07) [D/E/German]
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Fri Jul 29 19:44:04 UTC 2005
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L O W L A N D S - L * 29.JUL.2005 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (01) [D/E]
Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Btw, _pikken_ means 'to nick', 'to steal' in Brabantish.<
Could this be connected to 'pikey' which derives from Romany.
A Pikey or to be pikey is a shifty person / to act suspiciously
Heather
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (01) [D/E]
Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall;
The times they are a-changing.
OED doesn't seem to list this one.<
I've always understood it as a poetic remenant of the past participle
prefix HG 'ge-' Med. Eng 'y-' >>>> poetry as 'a-'
Heather
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
Hoj Theo,
Wat over 'brood'.
You wrote:
> Hallo,
>
> Sorry dat ik reageer.
Geeft niet hoor, daar dient dit forum toch voor?
> Want dan zit ik weer op glad ijs. {Anderen trouwens ook.}
So what? Daar hebben we toch schaatsen voor in de Lowlands? ;-)
Doet me trouwens aan het leuke Zuidnederlandse woord voor 'schaatsen'
denken: 'schaverdijnen'. Tot nu toe nog niet geheel bevredigend
verklaard, maar misschien als volgt: 'schaveren' als frequentatief van
'schaven' en verder invloed van een hypothetisch Frans woord
*savatin(e). 'Savat' bestaat nl. wel en wordt vrij vaak hier gehoord
voor 'pantoffel'. 'Savat' < Fr. savate 'versleten, platgetrapte schoen,
slof', Opic., Pic. /chavate/ < */çavate/, Prov. /sabate/ < It.
/ciabatta/ 'slof' (maar momenteel ook een populair soort _brood_ ;-) ) <
Turks /tchabata/, Ar. /sabbat/.
> Maar het lijkt me eerder dat hier 2 'stul'len samen zijn gaan lopen.
> Wat die ene 'stul' betreft: hierbij wordt steeds 'klont boter' gegeven.
> Deze 'stul' zal toch wel thuis horen in de woordfamilie van 'stollen'.
Volgens mij heb je gelijk. Alleszins in eerste instantie. Hoe dat
hogerop 'stollen' zich verhoudt tot de groepen van 'stellen', 'stal' en
uiteindelijk zelfs 'staan' is inderdaad van secundair belang. Misschien
hier nog eens even wat Duden er over zegt:
*Stulle* w: Die /nordd./, bes. /berlin./ Bezeichnung der [bestrichenen]
Brotschnitte (im 18. Jh. Butterstolle; /mdal./ immmer mit -u-) ist wohl
keine Nebenform des Gebäcknamens Stolle (s. Stollen). Eher geht es
zurück auf /südniederl./, /ostfries./ stul "Brocken, Butterklumpen,
Torfstück", ein Wort, das die flämischen Siedler des Mittelalters nach
Brandenburg gebracht haben können. Die Grundbed. von 'Stulle' wäre
demnach "Brocken, derbes Stück _Brot_".
Vriendelijke groeten,
Luc Hellinckx
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From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.28 (01) [E/LS]
>From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"
>
>> "sandwich"). In my book, those dialects are the easternmost extension
>> of Eastphalian (of which our Gabriele's secret dialect is a
>> westernmost representative).
>
>First of all: "in my book". Huh?!? What kind of book did you write Ron?
>Could you give some more information?
Luc, "in my book" is just an English expression that means "the way I see
it," "in my opinion," or "to my understanding."
Kevin Caldwell
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.29 (04) [D/E]
Dear Helge and Ron,
Helge wrote:
> I am not certain whether there is any Slavonic influence upon
> Brandeburg-Low Saxon apart from the place names because the typical
> j-pronunciation for g is present in many Low Saxon dialects and, of
> course,
> Dutch and Flemish, and used to be present in the dialect of
> Rendsborg-District as well as place names show such as Jevenstedt which
> used
> to be spelled with a G in early records.
Could it be scandinavian influence? Have a look at E: 'yesterday', LS:
'gystern', G: 'gestern'.
But- stop- I just had a look in an Old Saxon dictionary and found: 'geder',
'iedar' 'iodar', meaning LS: 'Jidder' (very interesting for me, because I
always used to pronounce it more like 'Jiller' and did write it this way,
too), E: 'udder', G: 'Euter'.
Obviously there had been a shifting from 'g' to 'j' in very early times,
maybe independently from regional, foreign influences.
Ron:
> It seems to be Polabian that left trace words in North Saxon dialects,
> such
> as _doens_ (<Dööns> ~ <Döönz> [d9:n(t)s]) 'living-room', 'parlor' (<
> *_dörnicë_ < *_dvornica_ referring to the place by the (front) door,
> *_dvor_).
I don't think so, because _doens_ is used in Guestphalia too. I guess it's a
derive of G: 'Tenne', OldHighGerman 'tenna', OldSaxon 'dennia' (meaning
'Ebene') and perhaps did go the opposite way to the East.
Greutens to both of You
Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Jonny,
I didn't make up that etymology myself. It is generally accepted as one of
the Polabian loans that has been spread from the original area to other
dialects. It's one of the "classics."
You find various stages of mutations in various dialects of Low Saxon. This
includes the intermediate forms _dörns_ and _dörn(t)z_.
Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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