LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (07) [D/E/LS/German/Missingsch]

Fri Jul 29 22:12:32 UTC 2005

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (01) [D/E]

Jacqueline wrote

>>
>> (though the noun _Pieke_ 'pointed instrument', 'pike', and these seem
>> suspiciously Low Saxon, for otherwise I'd expect *_Peike_).  I wonder if
>> this _puik_ = _puyk_ = _*piek_ is related to English "peak" (= point,
>> top),
>> which in English is known only since the 16th century (Lowlands loan?)
>> and
>> appears to be related to both "pike" and "beak."  (This is a complex
>> one!)
>
Moin alltohoop,

wi seggt: "Wenn Di een mit de Pike in de Rippen piekt, denn kiekst
pikiert" Allens klaar?

Ruum Hart, klaar Kimming
Utz H. Woltmann

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (07) [D/E/German]

#1
I always thought "pike" was a word for kind of road, as in "turnpike",
hence "pikey", a Gypsie-like traveller on those roads.

Ingmar

#2
In one of my Low Saxon two native dialects, that of Drenthe, <scheuveln>
["sx2:v=ln] means to skate, and <scheuvels> ["sx2:v=ls] are skates.
These seem to be cognates of Standard Dutch "schuifelen" to shuffle,
and "schuiven" to shove, of course, so maybe your "schaveren" is part of
that, too. More likely than being derived from hypothetic French or even
Arabic words (did you ever see people skate in Arabian countries?)

Ingmar

>So what? Daar hebben we toch schaatsen voor in de Lowlands? ;-)
>Doet me trouwens aan het leuke Zuidnederlandse woord voor 'schaatsen'
>denken: 'schaverdijnen'. Tot nu toe nog niet geheel bevredigend
>verklaard, maar misschien als volgt: 'schaveren' als frequentatief van
>'schaven' en verder invloed van een hypothetisch Frans woord
>*savatin(e).>

#3
I think the assumption that [j] is "older" than "[g] isn't so strange.
Some people expressed their displeasure here not so long ago about the
Dutch "guttural <g>", but they are probably not aware that this is the
original pronunciation of g in Germanic; Proto-Germanic had a soft or
fricative pronunciation for g, b and d, <g> sounding like Dutch or Low
Saxon intervocal <g>, <b> a bit like <v> and <d> like voiced <th>.
Yes, in English as well, the [j] sounds in words like <yell>, <yesterday>,
<yield>, but also in <day>, <rye> and <lie> are from this same gutural g,
and not from hard g as in get etc. Hard g's before e, i and other front
vowels in English are usually from Old Norse, although modern Norwegian
pronounces <g> as <j> in this position...
And, as I stated before, from palatal <g> to <j> is only a small step.

Ingmar

"Jonny" wrote:
>Helge wrote:
>> I am not certain whether there is any Slavonic influence upon
>> Brandeburg-Low Saxon apart from the place names because the typical
>> j-pronunciation for g is present in many Low Saxon dialects and, of
>> course,
>> Dutch and Flemish, and used to be present in the dialect of
>> Rendsborg-District as well as place names show such as Jevenstedt which
>> used
>> to be spelled with a G in early records.
>Could it be scandinavian influence? Have a look at E: 'yesterday', LS:
>'gystern', G: 'gestern'.
>
>But- stop- I just had a look in an Old Saxon dictionary and
found: 'geder',
>'iedar' 'iodar', meaning LS: 'Jidder' (very interesting for me, because I
>always used to pronounce it more like 'Jiller' and did write it this way,
>too), E: 'udder', G: 'Euter'.
>Obviously there had been a shifting from 'g' to 'j' in very early times,
>maybe independently from regional, foreign influences.

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (07) [D/E/German]

Thanks Luc for teaching me a Southern word for Schaatsen, let's hope I won't 
forget it and can use it :)

Would stol as in kerststol belong to the same stulle family?

Diederik Masure

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (07) [D/E/German]

Luc wrote:

> *Stulle* w: Die /nordd./, bes. /berlin./ Bezeichnung der [bestrichenen]
> Brotschnitte (im 18. Jh. Butterstolle; /mdal./ immmer mit -u-) ist wohl
> keine Nebenform des Gebäcknamens Stolle (s. Stollen). Eher geht es
> zurück auf /südniederl./, /ostfries./ stul "Brocken, Butterklumpen,
> Torfstück", ein Wort, das die flämischen Siedler des Mittelalters nach
> Brandenburg gebracht haben können. Die Grundbed. von 'Stulle' wäre
> demnach "Brocken, derbes Stück _Brot_".
>
Moin alltohoop,

in Bremen seggt se to en Stollen 'Klaben'. Ick segg ja, de Bremer snackt
en 'reines Hochdeutsch' mitohne butenlannsche Wöör.

In Ruszland hebbt se 'бyтepбpoд'. Dat seggt se to en 'Sandwich'. Awer se
hebbt vergeten, wat dat heet. För en Bodderbrood seggt se denn 'хлеб c
маслoм'.

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Och, nee! Kuck må! Unsä Utz-Maaister!

> Ick segg ja, de Bremer snackt
> en 'reines Hochdeutsch' mitohne butenlannsche Wöör.

Denn muss 'as žå aauch stimm'm, wennu das so schöön mit-ohne Zögern sågng 
tuus.  Iä Bremers happt schå schoon immä hooch hinaaus gewollt, so wie baai 
die Stadtmusikanten schoon.

> in Bremen seggt se to en Stollen 'Klaben'.

Könn'n sie žå aauch nix füä.  In Hambuich sågng wiä das 'n büschn hübschä, 
so schöön mit Mundrundung un Schisslaweng da mit ßu: "Klöben".  Issoch 
schöön, nä?  Richtich elegant issas, finnich.

Dat hangt schynts mit Duytsch _Kloben_ (as in _Holzkloben_) tousamen.

Un Jonny, myn makker, Dy hev ik tou voer schreven:

> I didn't make up that etymology myself.  It is generally accepted as one 
> of
> the Polabian loans that has been spread from the original area to other
> dialects.  It's one of the "classics."
>
> You find various stages of mutations in various dialects of Low Saxon. 
> This
> includes the intermediate forms _dörns_ and _dörn(t)z_.

I should have added even older extant forms: _dörnsse_ and _dörn(t)ze_.

> It seems to be Polabian that left trace words in North Saxon dialects,
> such
> as _doens_ (<Dööns> ~ <Döönz> [d9:n(t)s]) 'living-room', 'parlor' (<
> *_dörnicë_ < *_dvornica_ referring to the place by the (front) door,
> *_dvor_).

Niks mit "Tenne".

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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