LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.30 (01) [D/E/LS]

Sat Jul 30 20:16:46 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Hi Heather,

You wrote:

>> Btw, _pikken_ means 'to nick', 'to steal' in Brabantish.<
>
> Could this be connected to 'pikey' which derives from Romany.
>
> A Pikey  or to be pikey  is a shifty person / to act suspiciously
>
> Heather

Doubt it. 'Pikey' seems to be derived from 'turnpike', denoting people
loitering about a tollgate; and setting up camp there (in the past). The
'pike' in 'turnpike' is related to Romance words like French 'pic' and
Spanish 'pico' (pointed extremity). Looking this up, I came across an
interesting website http://www.urbandictionary.com , which is an urban
slang dictionary.
Lots of interesting (and funny) stuff there!

Oh yes, Brabantish 'pikken' on the other hand, is cognate with English
'to pick', like in the expression 'pick and steal'.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Heather,

You wrote:

>> It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall;
>
> The times they are a-changing.
> OED doesn't seem to list this one.<
>
> I've always understood it as a poetic remenant of the past participle
> prefix  HG 'ge-'   Med. Eng   'y-'     >>>> poetry as 'a-'
>
> Heather

The concise version of OED seems to have it:

*a* ME. o, a in a distributive sense, e.g. /twice/ /a/ /day/, reduced
form of ON; surviving in comps. of A-¹, and NOWADAYS; linked with a
gerund, as in /go/ /a/-/begging/.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Kevin,

You wrote:

>> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
>> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"
>>
>>> "sandwich").  In my book, those dialects are the easternmost extension
>>> of Eastphalian (of which our Gabriele's secret dialect is a
>>> westernmost representative).
>>
>> First of all: "in my book". Huh?!? What kind of book did you write Ron?
>> Could you give some more information?
>
> Luc, "in my book" is just an English expression that means "the way I
> see it," "in my opinion," or "to my understanding."

Thanks pal, I know by now, Ron explained me earlier on. Btw, I would
have understood right away if it was written like "in mý book" ;-) .
Maybe I just think too much of Ron as an omniscient oracle ;-) .

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ingmar,

You wrote:

> #2
> In one of my Low Saxon two native dialects, that of Drenthe, <scheuveln>
> ["sx2:v=ln] means to skate, and <scheuvels> ["sx2:v=ls] are skates.
> These seem to be cognates of Standard Dutch "schuifelen" to shuffle,
> and "schuiven" to shove, of course, so maybe your "schaveren" is part of
> that, too. More likely than being derived from hypothetic French or even
> Arabic words (did you ever see people skate in Arabian countries?)
>
> Ingmar
>
>> So what? Daar hebben we toch schaatsen voor in de Lowlands? ;-)
>> Doet me trouwens aan het leuke Zuidnederlandse woord voor 'schaatsen'
>> denken: 'schaverdijnen'. Tot nu toe nog niet geheel bevredigend
>> verklaard, maar misschien als volgt: 'schaveren' als frequentatief van
>> 'schaven' en verder invloed van een hypothetisch Frans woord
>> *savatin(
>
The problem is that "schaver-dijnen" (pronounced "schofferdaënn" in
Brabantish) is actually composed of two parts.

The first part is not that difficult to explain, as it is indeed clearly
related with either the group of "schuiven" or "schaven". Kiliaan
attests 'schuyverdijnen', next to 'schaverdijnen', and we do have a verb
like '(af)schèffern' in Brabantish, which means 'to slide (away)'. Both
phonologically and semantically, there's no problem for the first part.

But!

The last part is not so obvious. That's why I looked a little further.
Bear in mind, that much of fashion (both garments and textile) during
the Middle Ages was using names that referred to the Middle East.
*Savatin is indeed hypothetical for French, but 'ciabattino' is a very
real common word in Italian. It means a shoemaker, but not an ordinary
shoemaker (those are called 'calzolaio'); it's a shoemaker that only
sews and repairs slippers. Those slippers are called 'ciabatta' <
'ćabata' (Turkish), and within Turkey, they mean(t) 'Persian shoes'. Now
I don't know what kind of shoes Persian people were wearing in those
days, but I do know that because of the Crusades, shoes with toes
pointed upward, became extremely popular all over Europe...so there you
have a link with a skate whose nose traditionally curls upward too.
Viewed from the side, a skate resembles such a slipper pretty well.

Indeed, Arabs don't skate...but 'exotica' is probably of all times ;-)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: Hopelijk reed ik hier geen al te scheve schaats ;-)

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.29 (07) [D/E/LS/German/Missingsch]

Ik schreev:

> In Ruszland hebbt se 'бyтepбpoд'. Dat seggt se to en 'Sandwich'. Awer se
> hebbt vergeten, wat dat heet. För en Bodderbrood seggt se denn 'хлеб c
> маслoм'.
>
Wi hebbt hier in Norddüütschland so en Woord 'Klappstulle'. Mi dücht,
dat is dat sülvige as de Russens ehr 'бyтepбpoд', en Schiev Brood mit
Bodder un wat bavenup, dörsneen un över´nanner stapelt. Ik meen, ik heff
dat in Polen ok al hört as 'klapstułka' orrer so. Ik kann in de
Wöörböker awer niks finnen. Mag ween dat dat man blots in
Bydgoszcz/Bromberg un umto so bruukt warrt.

Greutens
Utz H. Woltmann

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.07.29 (05) [E/LS]

Hi Lowlanders:

In his email to Elsie, Jim Krause describes his version of "pruimenmoes"
as follows

Leewe Elsie,

      "Jo, ekj dachte dien Ressapt soo schient kjleen beet bekaunt!   Wie
moake Plümmamoos met  jedräjde Plüme,  Rasien,  Ssocka un  Schmaunt.

In the English translation "Schmaunt" is translated as cream. What is the 
etymology of that word?

There are many totally different words for cream. Like English "Cream" from 
French; Dutch "room" which is related to German Rahm, English “ream” and 
Icelandic rjÔmi. Van Dale states that it may be related to “raoghna” an 
Avestani word for butter. But there is also the German “Sahne” and 
Swiss-German “Needle”. Where do all these words come from?

Jacqueline

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Jacqueline!

You wrote (above):

The word _schmant_ (Mennonite _Schmaunt_, because /a/ -> [AU] is a rule) for 
'sour cream' was unknown to me in both Low Saxon and German until I was 
exposed more thoroughly to other dialects.  In Hamburg we say _suren raam_ ~ 
_suurraam_ (<suurn Rahm/Rohm> ~ <Suurrahm/-rohm>) and _saure Sahne_ 
respectively, _raam_ (<Rahm>) and _Sahne_ ~ _Rahm_ being 'cream'.  Clara 
Kramer-Freudenthal, on the other hand, coming from Olland, which straddles 
the border between Hamburg and Lower Saxony, says _schmant_ (<Schmant> 
[Sma%nt]).  I am not sure if _Schmant_ always means 'sour cream' or, in some 
dialects, also 'cream' in general.

In most Low Saxon dialects, _schmant_ sends up a red flag, because it has 
the sequence _schm..._ [Sm...] which does not exist in dialects that have 
_sm..._ [sm] (as in Dutch, Afrikaans and English).  Thus, it sounds 
"foreign," and apparently it is.

I assume it is a Slavonic loan, but I don't know exactly which variety it 
came from, if it came from a local extinct (+) language or if it has made 
its way from farther east.  Since _Schmant_ is apparently also used in 
Austrian German, we might need to look far afield.

Note the following known Slavonic words for the same:

Draveno-Polabian (+): sômatona
Polish: śmietana, śmietanka
Kashubian: ? [can't find -- help!]
Sorbian, Upper: smjetana
Sorbian, Lower: zmjatana
Czech: smetana
Slovak: smotana
Ukrainian: сметана (smetana)
Belorusian: ? [can't find -- help!]
Russian: сметана (smetana)
Slovene: smetana
Bulgarian: сметана (smetana)
Old Church Slavonic (+): ? [can't find -- help!]

(Apparently, other South Slavonic languages have unrelated words for it.)

Yiddish: סמעטענע smetene (< Slav.), שמאַנט shmant (< Slav.)

I would expect a Slavonic word that begins with [s'] (Polish spelling <ś>) 
or [S] (Polish spelling <sz>), also with a nasal vowel (/e~/ or /a~/, Polish 
<ę> or <ą>) which before /t/ would require an [n] (thus /e~/ -> [Ent] ~ 
[ant], /a~t/ -> [Ant]).  The Lekhitic varieties (Polish, Pomeranian, 
Polabian) are the only Slavonic ones that retained nasalized vowels.

I would expect something like *_smięt_, *_śmięt_, *_smiąt_, *_śmiąt_ or 
*_šmąt_ to be the donor word of _Schmant_.  I assume it is related to 
*_smetana_ (< *_smętana_?), perhaps being its old root.

Unfortunately, I don't have my Slavonic etymological dictionary here.  Any 
help, you Slavicists among us?  Any clues in Old Church Slavonic?

Luc (above):

> Maybe I just think too much of Ron as an omniscient oracle ;-) .

Well, that must be it then.  It's part of the school of hard knocks, I 
guess.  Disappointments are good for personal growth, and idols are there to 
be smashed or at least chipped away at.  Besides, who wants to be thought of 
as omniscient or as an oracle, anyway?  Be my guest, Luc!  Chip away! 
Humility is even better for personal growth.  If you feel like chomping and 
throwing peanuts while you're at it, I know where you can get some, just a 
short climb away.  ;-)

Humbly yours,
Reinhard/Ron

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