LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.30 (02) [E/German]

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Sun Jul 31 02:27:36 UTC 2005 

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.30 (01) [D/E/LS]

Hello you all who are involved in the skate controversy:
Maybe this is way out of left field. In Dutch there is the ending 
"deine/dijne" for little one as in "poppedeine/dijne?" a term of endearment 
for a baby.
Could that Have happened to your "schaverdijnes"? Jacqueline

And also: Ron, thank you very much for your learned etymology of Schmaunt
I am duly impressed, but Schmalz, which must come from schmelzen is 
etymologically unrelated? Jacqueline

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Jacqueline, for the compliment.  Yet, lo, the vultures, they are 
a-circling ...

I wonder then if "smooth" and _smetana_ are related.

About _deine/dijne_ ... Related to Low Saxon _deyrn(e)_ 'girl' and German 
_Dirne_ ('girl' >) 'whore'?  Nah!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.30 (01) [D/E/LS]

Ron,

to _Schmant_ Duden says:

*Schmant, der; -[e]s (landsch. für Sahne; ostmitteld. für Matsch, Schlamm)*

and I guess it could be o.k., because I remember my grandparents from
Eastern Prussia using it as a normal word for sour cream.

Today it ranked up to a common word in G though often wrongly written as
'Schmand'.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron (en Jacqueline),

You wrote:

> The word _schmant_ (Mennonite _Schmaunt_, because /a/ -> [AU] is a
> rule) for 'sour cream' was unknown to me in both Low Saxon and German
> until I was exposed more thoroughly to other dialects.  In Hamburg we
> say _suren raam_ ~ _suurraam_ (<suurn Rahm/Rohm> ~ <Suurrahm/-rohm>)
> and _saure Sahne_ respectively, _raam_ (<Rahm>) and _Sahne_ ~ _Rahm_
> being 'cream'.  Clara Kramer-Freudenthal, on the other hand, coming
> from Olland, which straddles the border between Hamburg and Lower
> Saxony, says _schmant_ (<Schmant> [Sma%nt]).  I am not sure if
> _Schmant_ always means 'sour cream' or, in some dialects, also 'cream'
> in general.
>
> In most Low Saxon dialects, _schmant_ sends up a red flag, because it
> has the sequence _schm..._ [Sm...] which does not exist in dialects
> that have _sm..._ [sm] (as in Dutch, Afrikaans and English).  Thus, it
> sounds "foreign," and apparently it is.
>
> I assume it is a Slavonic loan, but I don't know exactly which variety
> it came from, if it came from a local extinct (+) language or if it
> has made its way from farther east.  Since _Schmant_ is apparently
> also used in Austrian German, we might need to look far afield.
>
> Note the following known Slavonic words for the same:
>
> Draveno-Polabian (+): sômatona
> Polish: śmietana, śmietanka
> Kashubian: ? [can't find -- help!]
> Sorbian, Upper: smjetana
> Sorbian, Lower: zmjatana
> Czech: smetana
> Slovak: smotana
> Ukrainian: сметана (smetana)
> Belorusian: ? [can't find -- help!]
> Russian: сметана (smetana)
> Slovene: smetana
> Bulgarian: сметана (smetana)
> Old Church Slavonic (+): ? [can't find -- help!]
>
> (Apparently, other South Slavonic languages have unrelated words for it.)
>
> Yiddish: סמעטענע smetene (< Slav.), שמאַנט shmant (< Slav.)
>
> I would expect a Slavonic word that begins with [s'] (Polish spelling
> <ś>) or [S] (Polish spelling <sz>), also with a nasal vowel (/e~/ or
> /a~/, Polish <ę> or <ą>) which before /t/ would require an [n] (thus
> /e~/ -> [Ent] ~ [ant], /a~t/ -> [Ant]).  The Lekhitic varieties
> (Polish, Pomeranian, Polabian) are the only Slavonic ones that
> retained nasalized vowels.
>
> I would expect something like *_smięt_, *_śmięt_, *_smiąt_, *_śmiąt_
> or *_šmąt_ to be the donor word of _Schmant_.  I assume it is related
> to *_smetana_ (< *_smętana_?), perhaps being its old root.
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have my Slavonic etymological dictionary here.
> Any help, you Slavicists among us?  Any clues in Old Church Slavonic?

Not a Slavicist, but I did find something.
'Schmand' and 'Schmetten' are no cognates. According to DTV:

*Schmand* gehört zu asächs. /smōđi/, ags. /smōþ/ 'glatt', 'weich',
'angenehm', 'lindernd' (vgl. engl. /smooth/ 'glatt').
whereas
*Schmetten* ist aus dem Tschechischen /smétana/ 'Milchrahm' entlehnt. In
nhd. /Schmetterling/ steckt das gleiche Wort, weil man früher der
Überzeugung war, die Hexen würden Rahm stehlen in der Gestalt von
Schmetterlingen (vgl. engl. /butterfly/).

Anybody who wants to see the geographical distribution of this lexical
set within Germany can have a look at this map:

http://users.telenet.be/hilde.lemey/Sahne_Rahm.jpg

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: Btw, we seem to say both _zään_ and "roeëm" here. A certain brown
pot (made of stone) that was used to keep milk (and meat) in, is always
called _ne zäänpot_ though.

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Jacqueline,

Found some more for you:

*Sahne*
Sf Substantiv Femininum std.Standardwortschatz (14. Jh.), spmhd. sane,
mndd. sane,  mndl. sane Entlehnung. Vermutlich entlehnt aus afrz. saime
"Rahm". Das Wort tritt in älterer Zeit im Südniederländischen und im
Ostmitteldeutschen und Niederdeutschen auf; ist also offenbar in und um
Brabant in seiner Bedeutung festgelegt und durch die Ostkolonisation
nach Deutschland gebracht worden. Dort ist es im Zuge der
Auseinandersetzung mit anderen Wörtern dieser Bedeutung als vorwiegend
städtischer Ausdruck vor allem für die verarbeitete und die süße Sahne
durchgesetzt worden. Adjektiv: sahnig; Partikelableitung: absahnen. Das
französische Wort wird auf l. sagIna "Mast, Nahrung, Fett"
zurückgeführt, doch dürfte eher ein keltisches Wort zugrundeliegen, vgl.
kymr. hufen "Rahm" < *soi-men.

*Rahm*
SmSubstantiv Maskulinum "Sahne" std.Standardwortschatz (11. Jh.), mhd.
roum,  mndd. rOm(e) Stammwort. Aus wg. *rauma- m. "Rahm", auch in ae.
rēam; im Ablaut dazu anord. rjúmi. Falls von *raugma- auszugehen ist,
vergleicht sich avest. raogna- n., raogniiA- f. "Butter". Weitere
Herkunft unklar. Die neuhochdeutsche Form beruht auf einer Mundart, die
mhd. ou zu A entwickelt hat. Wo Rahm gegen Sahne semantisch
differenziert wird, bezieht es sich eher auf den sauren Rahm.
Präfixableitung: entrahmen; Partikelableitung: abrahmen.
Ebenso nndl. room. und ae. rēam.

*Flott*
gehört zum Verbum /fliess//en /und hat des­sen urspr. Bedeutung von 'auf
dem Wasser schwimmen' bewahrt (vgl. nhd. /Flotte)./ Ebenso ae. /fliete/
und dä. /fløde/ ~ 'to float, to fleet'.

*Niedel*.
Seine Herkunft ist dunkeI. Es ist wahr­scheinlich ein vorromanisches Wort
.
*Abnemete*
 ist eine Kollektivbildung zum Ver­bum /abnehmen./

*Blotz*, *Blotter*
dürfte onomatopoetisch zum Rumpeln des Butterfasses gebildet sein.

*Mirre*, *Milere*
 ist aus Milchrahm kontaminiert.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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