LL-L "Etymology" 2005.06.23 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 23.JUN.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.06.22 (04) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>What could be the origin of this transfigurated meaning? As far as I know
the chminey sweeper is good for bringing luck in other, foreign (and
perhaps not so foreign) cultures, too.<

related to 'soot' ???? A 'Sooty' who removes the soot from the chimneys????

A kiss from a chimney sweep is still thought to bring a bride luck on her
wedding day! And he must leave a black mark  on her cheek - so soot must
have been the prime cause of the luck.

Has anyone any info on the origins of this  Germanic? Eurpoean? custom

Heather

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.06.20 (07) [E]

"beguiling"? sound a lot like Dutch <begeilen>, with a somewhat different
meaning (to sex up). But I don't have to do that to my lovely wife, she'd
love to read the Dutch version of the Wren, the only problem for is is how
to record it and get it on the site...
Ingmar

>Reinhard
>As for the Standard Dutch recording, have you started working your
>legendary beguiling powers on Barbara yet?

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Jonny:

> with my neighbours those days I had a talk about the LS: 'Sottje", G:
> 'Schornsteinfeger', E: 'chimney sweeper'. A word scarcesly used in our
> days.

Heather (above):

> related to 'soot' ???? A 'Sooty' who removes the soot from the
> chimneys????

Yep.  When I grew up in Hamburg, _sotje_ (<Sottje> ["zOtje]) was the normal
word for "chimney sweep" (German _Schornsteinfeger_ lit. "chimney sweeper")
in both Low Saxon and Missingsch (i.e., Low-Saxon-based German), and "soot"
is _sot_ (<Sott> [zOt], German _Ruß_ [ru:s]).  In many other dialects (of
the vowel raising type) these are _sutje_ (<Suttje> ["zUtje]) and _sut_
(<Sutt> [zUt]) respectively, with the same vowel pronunciation as in English
"soot".  (So a chimney sweep is a "sootie".)  And, yes, in both Low Saxon
and Missingsch (and Missingsch-derived German) _Sott_ ~ _Sutt_ also means
'good luck'.

LS: sot/sut hebben
M: Sott haben
(but not G *_Ruß haben_ for _Glück haben_!)
"to have soot"
'to have/be in luck'

LS: swyn hebben
M/G: Schwein haben
"to have pig/hog"
'to have/be in luck'

I think the common theme here is dirt, something that at face value seems
like the opposite of luck.  Perhaps it's something like "Break a leg!"
(German _Hals- und Beinbruch!_ "Leg and neck fracture!") when you really
mean "Good luck!".

(Folks, if this develops away from etymology, please respond to it under
"Folklore".)

> "beguiling"? sound a lot like Dutch <begeilen>, with a somewhat different
> meaning (to sex up).

>From "guile," which comes from Old French _guiler_ (Provençal _guilar_)
'trick(ery)', 'to beguile', with the idea of "leading (astray)."  It's very
archaic and literary these days, which is why I used it for comic relief.
It may be related to the equally archaic _wile_, which appears to be related
to Old Norse _vél_ 'craft', 'contrivance', and _véla_ 'to defraud'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Ingmar, you can pick up a microphone very cheaply these days, and I
can point you to a nifty free sound recording program.

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