LL-L "Grammar" 2005.06.28 (09) [E/LS]
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Tue Jun 28 17:25:42 UTC 2005
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L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2005 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Jonny Meibohm <altkehdinger at freenet.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.06.27 (07) [LS]
Dag ouk, Thorsten,
man- un' ick weer all meist bang, in Mekelnboorg wöörn de 'Plattdytschen'
uutstörven ;-)!
Du schreyvst:
> Dat Hus, WAT ik IN wanen do, is grot.
>
> Dat Auto, WAT he MIT füren deit, is mien.
>
> De Disch, WAT dat Book UP liggen deit, steit in'e Stuuv'.
Hier, anne Münnen van de Elv, deen wi woll eyder seggen:
'Dat Hus, WO ick in wonen dou, is grout.'
'Dat Auto, WO he mit föör'n deit, is miin.'
'De Disch, WO dat Bouk op liggen deit, steit inne Stuuv'.
Noberschapplich' Greutens:
Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.06.27 (07) [LS]
> De Disch, WAT dat Book UP liggen deit, steit in'e Stuuv'.
Dey disch, DEY dat bouk UP liggen dayt, (dat) stayt in de stuuv'.
Dey disch, WAT dat bouk UP liggen dayt, (dat) stayt in de stuuv'.
Dey disch, UP DEY dat bouk liggen dayt, (dat) stayt in de stuuv'. ('n
beten "geel")
Der Tisch, auf dem das Buch liegt, steht in der Stube.
German
The table ON WHICH the book is lying is in the living room. English
ultra corrrect
The table the book is lying ON is in the living room.
English normal
Reinhard
I have tried to follow the gist of this exchange but I am one of those non
platt / lowlanders who knows little but is keen to learn, so finds it
difficult to follow.
Can you annotate the above and say what language/dialect the examples come
from.
Thanks
Heather
PS and I am right in noticing the use of an auxiliary........... related to
'do'???????
This is used extensively in these examples.
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar
Hi, Heather!
Actually, knowing about your interests, I was thinking of you as I was
responding to Thorsten's question, and I was wondering if you got any of
this.
> Can you annotate the above and say what language/dialect
> the examples come from.
Happy to.
Thosten's Mecklenburg Low Saxon dialect:
De Disch, WAT dat Book UP liggen deit, steit in'e Stuuv'.
[The table, WHAT the book ON lying does, stands in the parlor.]
My North Saxon variations:
Dey disch, DEY dat bouk UP liggen dayt, (dat) stayt in de stuuv'.
[The table, THAT the book On lying does, (that/it) stands in the parlor.]
Dey disch, WAT dat bouk UP liggen dayt, (dat) stayt in de stuuv'.
[The table, WHAT the book ON lying does, (that/it) stands in the parlor.]
Dey disch, UP DEY dat bouk liggen dayt, (dat) stayt in de stuuv'.
[The table, ON THAT the book lying does, (that/it) stands in the parlor.]
> ('n beten "geel")
Lit.: "a bit "yellow"
"Yellow" refers to "High" German or to German-influenced Low Saxon. So,
_geel snakken_ may mean 'to speak German (rather than one's native Low
Saxon),' usually implying some sort of uppetiness. It can also mean 'to
speak Low Saxon in an artificial, high-class manner' (which by default is
German-influenced). It is usually not applied to native German speakers.
(That's _'n Hoog-Duytschen_.) "Yellow" implies German approximation
affectations of a native speaker.
Above, Jonny uses as relative pronoun <wo> (which is really _waar_ 'where',
as opposed to <wo> _wou_ 'how', Dutch _hoe_).
> PS and I am right in noticing the use of an auxiliary........... related
> to
> 'do'???????
> This is used extensively in these examples.
Yes, indeed, Heather. You got that right. Low Saxon uses auxiliaries
liberally, using 'to do' when all else fails.
_Dou(e)n_ as an auxiliary is used very extensively in Low Saxon, and the
finer points of its usage have not yet been fully explored I believe.
First of all, the forms:
Present:
ik dou, du dayst, hey/sey/dat/it dayt, wy/jy/sey dout ~ dou(e)n
Preterite:
ik deed' [de:.(d)], du deed'st [de:.(d)s(t)], hey/sey/dat/it deed'
[de:.(d)], wy/jy/sey deden ~ deen [de:d=n] ~ [de:n]
Past Particial:
(have) daan [dQ:n]
Its use as an auxiliary predominates in (but is not limited to) the
following two environments:
(1) relative clauses of the type above
(2) emphasis on main verb (primarily in negations and questions)
Examples:
(1)
Den kouken, den du daar eten dayst, hev ik bakt.
[The cake, that thou there eat dost, have I baked.]
Den kouken, den du daar itst, hev ik bakt.
[The cake, that thou there eatest, have I baked.]
(I don't perceive much difference with or without auxiliary.)
Preterite use is rare, somewhat awkward, in part because past participial
forms are preferred:
Den kouken, den du gistern eten deest, hev ik bakt.
[The cake, that thou yesterday eat didst, have I baked.]
Den kouken, den du gistern eetst, hev ik bakt.
[The cake, that thou yesterday atest, have I baked.]
Den kouken, den du gistern eten hest, hev ik bakt.
[The cake, that thou yesterday eat hast, have I baked.]
(2)
Nee! Ik dou dy nich haten.
[No! I do thee not hate.]
Nee! Ik haat dy nich.
[No! I hate thee not.] (lacks oomph)
So dayt 'n dat nich schryven.
[Thus/so does one that/it not write.]
So schrivt 'n dat nich.
[Thus/so writes one that/it not.] (OK. Because no emphasis intended?)
Ik dou dat kaken, man ik dou dat nich eten.
[I do that/it cook, but I do that/it not eat.]
Kaken dou ik dat, man eten dou ik dat nich.
[Cook do I that/it, but eat do I that/it not.] (auxiliary mandatory in verb
topicalization)
Ik kaak dat, man ik eet dat nich.
[I cook that/it, but I eat that/it not.] (lacks oomph)
Dout jy em vaken in de moyt kamen?
[Do you him often in the meet come (=meet, bump into)?] (emph. on 'often'
and main verb)
Kaamt jy em vaken in de moyt?
[Come you him often in the meet?] (OK, but more emph. on 'often')
Dayst du vaken bakken?
[Dost thou often bake?] (emph. on 'often' and main verb)
Bakst du vaken?
[Bakest thou often?] (OK, but more emph. on 'often')
Dayst du bakken?
[Dost thou bake?] (perhaps habitually?)
Bakst du?
[Bakest thou?] (perhaps right now?)
Ik hev al segd, dat ik (nich) bakken dou.
[I have already said, that I (not) bake do.]
Ik hev al segd, dat ik (nich) bak.
[I have already said, that I (not) bake.] (lacks oomph)
I have not yet grappled with this here:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/
I often wonder if English uses of auxiliary 'do' had their roots in spoken
forms of Old Saxon.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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