LL-L "Names" 2005.03.01 (09) [E]

Tue Mar 1 23:46:01 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (ZeÃªuws)
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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.03.01 (03) [E]

"The flemings?"

Dave, I am not a linguist either. I have heard that a native Flemish speaker
is a Fleming. That could be an old term.

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.03.01 (03) [E]

Another thing in this context is my curiousity about Flemish immigrants who
came to the Norfolk area.
They were in fact textile workers, and as far as I can remember, I once was
told that in that area there are still remnants of flemish vocabulary in the
local dialect. Does somebody know anything about this?

Denis Dujardin
A true ""Fleming"""!

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From: CrÃostÃ³ir Ã“ Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.03.01 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:
"However, I'm told that many or most of these workers reached Scotland via
Wales, were they had settled earlier (and were called _fflemeg_, I assume).
Many of them were not considered
Flemish in Scotland but Welsh, hence the surnames Welsh, Walsh, etc."

In that case you will be very interested in one of the more famous
nationalists in Cornish history, a lawyer named Flamank, who led the 1497
Rising alongside a more ordinary man named An Gof (Cornish for "smith").
_flamank_ appears to be a Cornish borrowing of one of the continental forms
of _fleming_.

Go raibh maith agat,

CriostÃ³ir.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Ha soce, Kitto wheag!  Kedhlow da hi.  Durdalada whye!

I'm always keen to hear about Cornish, be it on the List (if relevant) or
off the List.  If there's a connection with English or another Lowlands
language, all the better.

Apparently the surname Flamank is still around, also in the Americas, South
Africa, Australia and New Zealand.

In older Scots: Fleming ~ Flemyng ~ Flamming ~ Flaming ~ Flemeing ~ Flemying
~ Flemyne ~ Flemyn ~ Fleaming ~ Fleeming ~ Fleemyng ~ Flemming

It can denote three things:

(1) a person of Flanders (or thereabouts)
(2) a type of barge
(3) a type of woolen cloth

Flanders is _FlÃ nras_ in Scottish Gaelic.  But what is "Fleming"?
*_FlÃ nraseach_?

I really enjoy your postings, CrÃostÃ³ir.  Thanks for that.  Comero weeth.

I think names for countries, regions and ethnicities are rather interesting
when it comes to minority or "minoritized" languages, especially in latter
type, where a "major" language becomes "minor" and then not only gets
foreign items through the dominant language but, in the wake of language
decline, even loses its own vocabulary and replaces it with imported items
from the overshadowing language.  I'm kind of repeating myself here when I
give as an example Low Saxon (Low German) of Germany where many older
"native" names are being replaced by more recently imported German-derived
substitutions; e.g., _Joude_ ~ _Joud'_ (<Jode> ~ <Jood>) ~ _Joyde_ ~ _Joyd'_
(<JÃ¶de> ~ <JÃ¶Ã¶d>) > _Jude_ ~ _Juud'_ (G. Jude) 'Jew', _Engelsch-man_ ~
_Ingelsch-man_ (<Engelschmann> ~ <Ingelschmann>) > _Englender (<EnglÃ¤nner>)
'Englishman', 'British person', _Vranschman_ (<Franschmann>) > _Franzoos'_
(< G. Franzose) 'Frenchman' (though plural/collective _Franzosen_ has been
used for a long time), _Tater_ > _Zigeuner_ (< G. Schwede) 'Gypsy',
'Rom(a)', _Swede_ ~ _Sweed'_ > _Schwede_ (< G. Schwede) 'Swede'.  I was
pretty darn sad when I came across _Niederlanden_, _Niederlannen_ and
_niederlÃ¤nd(i)sch_ recently, since this is talking about a next-door
neighbor country with speakers of the same and closely related languages
right across the border.  As far as I am aware, it should be _Nedderlanden_
(<Nedderlannen>) and _Nedderlandsch_ (<nedderlandsch>), possibly
_Neerlanden_ and _Neerlandsch_ in some farwestern dialects. I think
_Holland_ and _Hollander_ (<Hollander>) are more original, probably going
back to before today's political boundaries, meaning the actual Holland and
later the country under supposedly Hollandish power.  _Hollander_ can also
denote a type of sailing vessel and a type of windmill.

In Low Saxon we also have a reference to Scotland: _Schotsche kar_
(<schottsche Karr> ~ <Schottschekarr> "Scottish cart"), denoting a flatbed
wheelbarrow with two large wheels, usually used to transport market wares in
the olden days, often considered typical of old Hamburg, but I have seen
such carts also in the Netherlands.  Oh, and then there's the _Schotsch_
(<Schottsch>), a type of dance.  I found a couple of pictures that come
close to it:
 http://www.carolsmith-artisan.com/IMG_1308m.jpg
http://www.carriagesales.com/Images/thumb_623-1.jpg

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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