LL-L "Phonology" 2005.03.31 (01) [E]

Thu Mar 31 16:01:06 UTC 2005

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 31.MAR.2005 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.03.30 (04) [E]

From: Waki Yasuji, Japan, （yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp)
Re: Phonology

Dera Lowland friends,
As stated in the following posting, in Japan "Katakana" is often used to
describe "pronunciation" of foreign languages. But, I would like to insist
strongly that he/she who wants to learn foreign languages seriously and
wants to master it/them as  his/her tool(s,) never use such "Katakana" for
his/her help. Further, everyone knows that "Hiragana" never indicates the
real sound of foreign languages other than Japanese. "ラ、　リ、　ル、　レ、　ロ”　are
very often indicaten "ra, ri, ru, re ro". But we know that the prounciations
of "ラ、　リ、　ル、　レ、　ロ ”are not same as those of "ra, ri, ru, re, ro".  If a
student or a learner is learning a foreign language in order to master as a
specialist, he/she would never use "Katakana" as a pronunciation guide.
I learned English and German, but I have never used "Katakana" to learn
prunciations of these two languages. I know it is impossible to indicate
their pronunciations. Most of Japanese know this fact. But, some of us take
an easy way, because they don't know IPA well, and it maybe impossible they
can master foreign languages' pronunciation effectively and correctly.

I learned German as my first foreign language at a Japanese university to
study "Germanistik" to be a Germanist. I had never used German-Japanese
dictionaries using "Katakana" pronunciation. I know of course that "to know
IPA" mean "to be able to pronunce a foreign language correctly". Please
kndly note that I am not an exception.

Regards,

Waki Yasuji (脇　康二）

> Also, re: Waki Yasuji's comment that
>> Most of
>> dictionaries of foreign languages publisshed in Japan indicate how to
>> read
>> all words listed in them by using the international phonetic alphabet.
>
> my comment, as someone who has taught Russian at various Japanese
> universities over the past dozen or so years and spent many an hour
> searching for a useable text and dictionary to assign my students, is:
> ALAS,
> would that this were so! Most (90% if not more) intro texts for Russian
> have
> katakana pronunication over the text for at least the first 10 lessons
> (and
> often throughout the book).
>
> For those unversed, katakana is the Japanese syllabary used largely for
> representing foreign words. As a syllabary it is totally incapable (at
> least
> unless greatly modified) of indicating consonant clusters and
> syllable/word-final consonants (of which Russian is rife), ... and as a
> JAPANESE syllabary incapable (again unless greatly modified) of indicating
> the difference not only between "r" and "l" but for Russian also the
> difference between "hard" r and "soft" r, among many other Russian sounds
> it
> is incapable of accurately representing. Forget "human lights" and such
> humorous mispronunciations; what we get is total and utter non-sense!
>
> All this goes along way towards instilling a totally incomprehensible
> pronunciation in the students. Maybe it's true of students everywhere, but
> it's particulary true of Japanese students: if it comes to believing what
> a
> book says something should be pronounced like and what you can hear with
> your own ears, they'll go with the book every time!
>
> (The presence of katakana pronunciation guides above ALL the Russian in
> some
> texts also leads to something else I experienced the first day in my
> second
> year Russian class: NONE of the students could read ANY cyrillic!)
>
> So, I always choose a text with NO katakana (hard to find, but I have
> managed ... and the 2 I have found are also linguistically more sound in
> other ways as well).
>
> But as for dictionaries I have given up (the ones with non-katakana
> pronunciation guides are NOT for beginners and are prohibitously expensive
> here anyway, and no student taking Russian just to fulfill a language
> requirement is going to buy one) and gone with one with katakana ... but
> assigned it as optional. As an example of it's pronunciation guide (fairly
> representative of katakana guides to Russian pronunciation found in all
> other works as well), the common Russian greeting
> Здравствуйте,
> which SHOULD be pronounced something between [zdra(f)stvujt'e] (formal)
> and
> [zdras't'e] (informal) comes out as ズドラーストヴィチェ which would be
> transcribed as [zudora:sutoviče]. QUITE a difference!
>
> Mike Morgan
> KCUFS

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.03.30 (08) [E]

Dear  Ingmar

Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

> Btw, I was told that Afrikaans <ui> is unrounded to <ei/y> mostly, but i
> don't know if that's only Kleurling Afrikaans or the Standard pronuncia-
> tion. Ingmar

    Weelll, there is a rather large lexicon of common words similarly
consonanted with 'ui' on one side & 'ei' & 'y' on the other; so you have to
be careful to pronounce both in context to avoid not merely confusion but
embarrassment as well!
    Common speech is dependant on clear enunciation of both these
diphthongs; besides which, the usual shape the mouth takes while speaking
Afrikaans is nearer the 'ui' sound than the 'ei/y' sounds. Is it not the
same for Northern French?
    I like to tease my Californian wife with the request to repeat for me,
"Gefnuik met
'n puik pruik."  = "Misled with a fine wig." She just can't say it!
bruin = brown aot brein = brein
buitel = tumble aot beitel = chisel
buite = outer-
buit = loot aot byt = bite
buiter = looter aot byter = biter
bui = mood aot by = bee / present
duie = ruin aot dye = thighs
duik = dive aot dyk = dike
huide = hides aot heide = heath
huil = weep aot heil = praise
huis = house aot hys = lift
huig = uvula aot hyg = gasp
    Sorry - Time presses, & I haven't even gone through the alphabet!

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

It seems to me that the case of using _Katakana_ for foreign pronunciation
is not much different from using makeshift Roman-letter-based "phonetic"
systems frequently found in language "survival" guides written for the
Western market.  Many of the systems are so simplified that they ignore
important difference and barely even approximate the actual sound, for
instance using <uh> to represent anything from a schwa to [a] for
English-speaking readers and using <sch> for a whole range of Slavonic
sounds (even within one language) for German-speaking readers, usually
ignoring palatalization of consonants.  And things like tones and other
"exotica" tend to be ignored altogether.  Unfortunately, such systems are
used even in many language books that purport to cater to the more serious
student, such as some of those in the Teach Yourself series, for example in
the one for Afrikaans.  In the Danish volume, phonemic glottal constriction
(_stød_) is mentioned in the introduction but is indicated nowhere else, the
author referring the reader to Danish speakers if they insist on knowing
about it.  I believe that authors of language-teaching material ought not
get away with this sort of "lameness."

It would go a long way if at least the basics of the IPA system were taught
in high schools, at a minimum as it pertains to the sounds of students'
native and foreign languages.  This would equip them for further study.

However, even when they use IPA symbols many authors omit phonemic
information that is alien to their own languages.  A good example of this is
the omission of vowel length distinction in Chinese works describing or
teaching minority languages of China, while tonal differences tend to be
described in great detail, often even where these are really intonational.
So, also the use of the IPA tends to be only as good as the author's
proficiency and experience-based perception is.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================