LL-L "History" 2005.05.11 (09) [E]

Wed May 11 18:57:07 UTC 2005

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.05.11 (03) [E/German]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>My question: why did the Britannic Germanic people accept the Christian
believe and philosophies so much earlier and obviously easier as their
relatives in the 'Old World' at the same times? They even seem to have been
enthusiastic to convent their relatives, and of course at those times there
were no problems with the language.
Were they forced to demarcate themselves against the native inhabitants of
the British island?<

Wheeeeeeeeee!
How many hours have you got , Johnny?

1. Christianity was alive and well and flourishing among the Romano-Celts
from 350 AD onwards. It was widespread throughout the mainland ( evidence
the number of place names with Eccles << eglws Celtic/Welsh for church)
and had spread early to Ireland as well.

2. Celtic Christianity adopted / adapted certain characteristics of the
former celtic Druidism i.e. the isolated single cell monk who taught young
men / monks. The tonsure used by CC  ( Celtic Christians) was a straight
cut across the head from ear to ear unlike the RC (Roman catholic) tonsure
of a round patch at the back of the head. They retained the bonfires lit to
mark the 4 quarters of the year; they even ignored (?) the hanging out of
heads on the Celtic New Year ( 31 Oct. I wonder when these heads were
changed to pumpkins?) etc etc

3. It was these differences inter alia but mainly the dating of Easter that
caused the RC after Augustine had brought the RC  beliefs to these islands,
to call the Synod of Whitby, at which the CC bishops ( all 30 of them) were
effectively squashed and their church and beliefs dwindled from this time
on..

4. Christianity was taken to Upper Germany by Irish monks who had a
missionary spirit - which was/had been part and parcel of the CC beliefs.
Was this also a remanent of Druid principles? Later English missionaries
followed but the Irish were there first.  St Gallen et al.

5. Far from being in chaos after the Romans left there is much evidence of
continuing Romano-Celtic culture i.e  North Wales has a number of 5-7th
century grave stones written in Latin including one for a doctor ( sorry
cannot find reference to location)  and another for a judge and one for a
'great king' and several to bishops or priests.

i. cantiorix hic iacit venedotis cives ( citizen of Gwynedd)  fuit
consobrino

iii.magli[]t magistrat.....( teacher ? ..  judge ?)

and from Anglesey   - which had been the hub of the Druidic beliefs before
the Romans arrived

Catamanus rex ( king) sapientissmus opinatisimus omnium regum    ( dated at
c 625)

Hic beatus sacerdos ( priest/ bishop) saturninus sepulcro iacit et sua
sancta coniux - pax vobiscum  early  6th century

6. Far from being wiped out by the 'invading' Anglo-saxons it is now
thought that the Romanisation of Britain was much more an assimilation of
the best of  what Rome had to offer and the retention of the best the Celts
had to offer. Nicholas Ostler makes the point in his book Empire of the
Word  that Rome had a v ery different effect on Gaul/France than on Britain
- the result of which is clear to this day; English does not speak a
Romance language . The langauge that the so called anglo-Saxons confronted
was Romano-celtic  not a debased form of Latin. The amount of underlying
Celtic words ( and grammar) that lurks underneath the surface of modern
English is quite amazing   Yes << Oes ??? for starters  and the use of the
continuous tenses  I am going I was going etc

7. The amount of place names adopted from the Celtic  is huge|: even tho'
admittedly the 'invaders' don't seem to have necessarily understood the
meanings very well  - hence River Avon  i.e. River River. There are plenty
of Hill Hills too! But they clearly lived long enough side by side to take
on the earlier appelation.

8. I was at a lecture only last night on the Sutton Hoo ship burial and
there it was pointed out that the only other ship burials are in Sweden -
so it was not just the North Sea  Germans who were seeking more space by
coming over here - it was Swedes as well - long before they can be called
Vikings!

9. The fact that some superstitions and festivals still linger ( we touch
wood for luck << Druidic. We put out pumpkin heads on 31 Oct: we give eggs
at Easter etc) are evidence that alt least among the grass roots
populations old habits and beliefs die hard.

What is v interesting is that the people here were allowed to keep the name
day Wednesday when in Germany any mention of Woden had to be expunged -
because he was still seen as a force to reckon with. To the westv of
Birmingham can be found Wednesbury and Wednesfield - names that were kept
on precisely becasue they had no power left.

I could go on but dinner calls.

one last word. I have just found a refence in a book on the stone
inscriptions of Wales to say that there is ( to date) no known examples of
memorials after 700 until the early medieval preiod. So if you are looking
for the 'collapse' / tail end of the Romano-celtic world it might be worth
looking at the period 675 onwards - which doesn't give much time for the
foundation of the Anglo Saxon kingdoms. We have A/S charters dating from
795 for our village that list landmarks still to be seen!

Heather

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Heather (above):

> 4. Christianity was taken to Upper Germany by Irish monks who had a
> missionary spirit - which was/had been part and parcel of the CC beliefs.
> Was this also a remanent of Druid principles? Later English missionaries
> followed but the Irish were there first.  St Gallen et al.

Apparently, some English missionaries went to Saxony (the realy one) as
well.  Some have proposed that the following baptismal oath of the 8th or
9th century is in Old Saxon with an Old English influence.  Until I find out
exactly what these influences are I just assume that it is a certain kind of
Saxon dialect.

A: forsaichistu diobolae?
B: ec forsacho diobolae.
A: end allum diobolgelde?
B: end ec forsacho allum diobolgeldae.
A: end allum dioboles uuercum?
B: end ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum, Thunaer ende Uuoden
     ende Saxnote ende allvm them unholdum the hira genotas sint.
A: gelobeistu in got alamehtigan fadaer?
B: ec gelobo in got alamehtigan fadaer.
A: gelobeistu in Crist gotes suno?
B: ec gelobo in Crist gotes suno.
A: gelobeistu in halogan gast?
B: ec gelobo in halogan gast

A: Do you forsake the devil?
B: I (do) forsake the devil.
A: And all devil worship?
B: And I (do) forsake all devil worship.
A: And all the devil's works?
B: And I (do) forsake all the devil's works and words, Donar and Wotan
     (Odin) and Saxnot and all those demons that are their companions.
A: Do you believe in God, the Almighty Father?
B: I (do) believe in God, the Almighty Father.
A: Do you believe in Christ, the Son of God?
B: I (do) believe in Christ, the Son of God.
A: Do you believe in the Holy Ghost?
B: I (do) believe in the Holy Ghost.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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