LL-L "Games" 2005.05.26 (04) [E]

Thu May 26 18:34:03 UTC 2005

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.05.25 (07) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Now, though the Japanese think that it is a quintessentially Japanese
game,
I played the same game when I was a kid, and we called it ... "Rock, paper,
scissors" (or for a short time in 5th or 6th grade, "Rock, paper dynamite"
... or the much tamer "... pencil). Only, we had no song.<

There was a nice story about this in the papers a couple of weeks ago.

Sothebys and Christies were both bidding to hold a very large Art auction
for a Japanese art collector and he couldn 't decide which auction house to
give it to, so he decided to make the two representatives play  rock,
paper, scissors.

 I forget now who won but I did hear him explain how he had done it......
he took the advice of his 14 year old daughter !!!    who explained that in
a match with an aggressive opponent Paper will win, because the opponent
will see paper as a non -attacking stance and will expect his opponent to
adop the same , so he will go for rock on which to blunt the anticipated
attacking scissors  ( or a draw if they both go for rock) whearas of course
the 'soft' option of paper wraps the rock!  he followed the advice and won
the contract!

Heather

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.05.25 (07) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Games
>
> In the US (among some) "farggling," and in the southwestern US "roshambo."

I've never heard either of these names for "rock, paper, scissors".  The
last looks suspiciously like "Rochambeau", the name of the commander of the
army the French sent to America during the American Revolution.  And it's
probably coincidental, but "roche" is French for "rock."

And yes, some people add "dynamite" to the game - it beats rock and paper,
but loses to scissors (the scissors cut the fuse!).

Kevin Caldwell

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From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.05.25 (07) [E]

Hello Mike and Ron,
I have read your postings about "janken" in Japan and other places very
interesting. In Japan we use "guu (stone), paa(paper) and choki( scissors).
When I was a college student, I have once hears that there is a similar game
in Germany and there is "well". i am not sure if my memory is correct.
When I was a chld, I said only "janken pon" and when all members indicate
the same, then we play again with "aikodesho".
"saisho wa guu"xxxxxxx. This version is, I think, should be a very new one.
I have never played "janken" with this version. As Mike wrote, we, even
adults, play "janken" with friends or family, when we decide the orders of
many things.

> From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
> Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.05.16 (03) [E]
>
>
> A while ago I think there was a strand about the songs children (girls,
> actually, if I recall right) sing during play (jump-rope and the like;
> I've
> since deleted the incriminating evidence, so can't be sure my memory
> serves).
>
> So anyway, I've had a question vaguely in my mind for years (literally --
> since coming to Japan in Heisei 1), and so I'll finally come out and ask
> you
> guys ... (I found a site (alas for some, in Japanese) which had some info,
> though some of it less that really informative, at
> :http://www.netlaputa.ne.jp/~tokyo3/janken.html, but my question still
> remains ...)
>
> Here in Japan (and I mean EVERYWHERE in Japan) everyone (and I mean
> EVERYONE, including "seniors") plays a"game" called じゃんけん (janken),
> and
> there is a song that goes along (slightly different versions found in
> various locales, each thinking that theirs is IT). Having lived in both
> rural Eastern Japan and urban Western Japan, and been exposed to
> "standardized" versions when east and west, or urban and rural meet, it's
> hard to keep them straight, but here is A version:
>
> 最初はグー
> じゃんけんぽい
> あいこでしょ
>
> /saisho wa guu
> janken poi
> aiko desho/
>
> translated (loosely and to the extent possible:
> First there is "gu" (the fist)
>  [[ whereupon everyone shows "rock"
> "janken poi"
>  [[whereupon everyone tries their best to win
> a draw perhaps?
>  [[when there is a tie
>
> Now, though the Japanese think that it is a quintessentially Japanese
> game,
> I played the same game when I was a kid, and we called it ... "Rock,
> paper,
> scissors" (or for a short time in 5th or 6th grade, "Rock, paper dynamite"
> ... or the much tamer "... pencil). Only, we had no song.
>
> After I grew up and went overseas, I saw basically the same game played
> all
> over the place (though to date I will have to say that Japan is "unique"
> in
> that this is the only place I know where people over the age of 12 play it
> to make somewhat important decisions ... like which student in my 4th-year
> university class has to (gets to?) go first with their presentation, etc).
>
> And, after I married, I learned that in fact there IS another place where
> they play the game AND have a song: Hawai'i. My wife, who spent her first
> 7
> years on Maui remembers clearly playing "junk an' a po" (clearly from the
> Japanese ... as are my wife's ancestors), and the song went:
>
> "junken a Munken, a sucka sucka po,
> Wailuku Wailuku bum bum show."  (or "big fat toe)
>  [[ for those who aren't versed in Hawai'ian place names, Wailuku is a
> major town on Maui ... and where my wife was born
>
> When there's a stalemate, instead of Japanese "aikodesho", they say: "ai
> kana show" (close to the Japanese but with perhaps an "injection" from Da
> Kine (aka Hawai'ian Pidgin English) "A(i) caenna(')", probably NOT from
> Scots "a canna" ... though Sandy may prove me wrong ... as he sometimes
> does!)
>
> But, though Hawai'i is TECHNICALLY the US, with some 30% of the population
> being Japanese-Americans, maybe it deosn't count (I can say that as my
> wife
> is NOT around!).
>
> The only other place I've heard of a song being sung to go along with the
> game is the Phillippines, where the song goes (from the site given above):
>
> Jack and Poy
> Haly Haly Hoy
> Sino ang Matalo
> Siya ang Unggoy
>
> The title/first line seems suspisciously like the Japanese, so perhaps it
> IS
> a borrowing? (The Japanese, if memory of High School American History
> serves, where my teacher was a Bataan Death March survivor, did occupy the
> place for some years.)
>
> SO, my question is, does anyone know of anyplace where they play the game
> AND sing a song while they play ... outside the Japanese sphere of
> influence? And if you know the words I'd really be interested.
>
> Mike Morgan
> KUCFS
> Kobe-Osaka, Japan
>
> As a Sign Linguist and general cultural observer, one interesting thing
> here
> is that the hearing version and the Deaf version of the game differ ... in
> rhythm (i.e. 2 beats or 3 before you show. And as with many things, I get
> along better with the Deaf version, as it matches the rhythm we Amercians
> used when I was growing up.
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Games
>
> Hey, Mike!
>
> Where I grew up (Hamburg area, Germany) we did play that game, called it
> _Tsching-tschang-tschong_ and were quite convinced that it was Chinese
> (which could have meant anything East Asian).  I'm pretty sure the name is
> "Patentchinesisch," but I sometimes wonder if it has some kind of genuine
> roots.  Apparently it's known as _Schnick-Schnack-Schnuck_ in some parts
> of
> Germany.  I don't remember a special rhyme that went along with it.  We'd
> just say _Schere ... Stein ... Papier_ (scissors, stone/rock, paper).
>
> In South Africa it's know as "Ching Chong Chow," in Korean 가위, 바위, 보
> _Gawi
> bawi bo_ ("Scissors, Rock (Wrap?)").
>
> In the US (among some) "farggling," and in the southwestern US "roshambo."
>
> The "bo" part of the latter and in the Korean version may well be related
> with Japanese じゃんけんポン _janken pon_, and I wonder if it could come
> from
> Chinese, in which case I would expect *_ben_ or *_pen_ in Mandarin.
>
> Candidate Chinese words (characters):
>
> 'scissors': 剪 Mand. jiǎn (jian3), Cant. jin2, Sino-Jap. sen, Sino-Kor.
> cen
> 'cut with scissors'': 翦 Mand. jiǎn (jian3). Cant. jin2
> 'rock':  石 Mand. shí (shi2), Cant. sek6, Sino-Jap. seki, Sino-Kor. sek
> 'paper':  紙 (纸) Mand. zhǐ (zhi3), Cant. ji2, Sino-Jap. shi, Sino-Kor. si
> 'sheet': 張 ( ) Mand. zhāng (zhang1), Cant. jeung1, Sino-Jap. tyou (chô),
> Sino-Kor. cang
> 'sword':   (剑) Mand. ji n (jian4), Cant. gim3, Sino-Jap. 剣  ken,
> Sino-Kor.
> gem
> 'wrap': 包 Mand. bāo (bao1), Cant. baau1, Sino-Jap. pou~hou (pô~hô),
> Sino-Kor. pho
> 'enfold':   Mand. bao (bao4), Cant. pou5, bou6, Sino-Jap. pou~hou (pô~hô),
> Sino-Kor. pho
>
> Nah!?
>
> Maybe one of our Chinese friends can tell us if they play this game.
>
> Interesting!
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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