LL-L "Etymology" 2005.11.05 (04) [E]

Sun Nov 6 03:17:36 UTC 2005

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 05 November 2005 * Volume 04
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.11.05 (01) [E]

Re: "lullen" Ok Theo, I'll bite, what's in the book? Jacqueline

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Hi Theo,

You wrote:

>For one reason of another I always had the opinion
>that D. 'lul[len]' must have had the original meaning
>of 'to talk nonsense'; and I always connected this
>word with German 'lalen' as is found in the title "Das
>Lalebuch".
>For our German friends: the impressum-page tells us:
>Gedruckt zu Laleburg / Anno 1597], Reprint Klett-Cotta
>ab.1981.

Here in my part of Brabant, "lullen" exclusively means "to linger", "to 
dawdle" (E), "treuzelen" (D). Hence the word: "een lulbroek" (B), somebody 
who acts very slowly and frequently halts and stalls. This is very much in 
line with the meaning of the English verb "to loll" by the way (> 
"lollipop").
By the way, traditional Brabantish has no sexual connotations whatsoever for 
this word, and neither does Kiliaan, so maybe one meaning evolved like this 
in northern Dutch: to droop > to dangle > to hang (out).

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: KarlRein at aol.com <KarlRein at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.11.04 (01) [A/D/E]

>In France the openbare waterplaats is named Vespasienne..... does anyone
>knows where that comes from originally ?
>Bonjour d'Alfred

Known in French as Vespasien Titus F. Vespasianus, Roman emperor 69-79, 
reputedly was responsible for public urinals, (often called pissoirs in 
English, or at least in American English).  My impression was that the 
average older French speaker is likely to know the vespasiennes are named 
after a Roman emperor..  But come to think of it, I can't think of seeing 
one lately; there are now public (pay) toilets that come with paper, and 
wash themselves out when you leave them.

Karl [Reinhardt]

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Well, folks, seems like this puppy ain't gonna go away anytime soon, no 
matter what our Rikus says.

Luc (above):

> Here in my part of Brabant, "lullen" exclusively means "to linger",
> "to dawdle" (E), "treuzelen" (D). Hence the word: "een lulbroek"
> (B), somebody who acts very slowly and frequently halts and stalls.
> This is very much in line with the meaning of the English verb "to
> loll" by the way (> "lollipop").

> ... so maybe one meaning evolved like this in northern Dutch: to
> droop > to dangle > to hang (out).

Now you're talkin'!  This is the sort of hunch I've been having all along. 
A supposed connection with English 'to loll' makes a lot of sense to me:

OED:
<quote>
1. To hang down loosely; to droop, dangle
2. To swing, hang, be suspended
</quote>

This is related to Dutch _lollen_ 'to sleep', 'to nap', with the Early 
Modern Dutch extension _lollebanck_ 'couch', 'sofa' (> Modern Dutch _lollen_ 
'to warm oneself with a pot of charcoal placed under one's seat').  Thus 
there seems to be this semantic development from "to dangle" or "to flop" 
via "to relax" to "to make oneself comfortable." In English, you may "loll 
about on the bed" all Sunday morning (I wish!), and you can "have a loll." 
There is also the idea of 'to suspend', 'to pause', 'to slow down' [_The 
game is not to lolle so hie Ther fete failen fondement_, 1418].  So this is 
where our Luckxter comes in with his "Here in my part of Brabant, "lullen" 
exclusively means "to linger", "to dawdle" (E), "treuzelen" (D)" (above).  I 
guess this is also where the meanings of Dutch _lullen_ as 'to behave 
foolishly' and _lul_ 'foolish person' come in.  It implies 'to fool around', 
a form of dawdling, wasting time (with silliness).

Although apparently related, I think it must not be completely mixed up with 
"to lull" ('to soothe with sounds or caresses', 'to induce to sleep or to 
pleasing quiescence' > 'to quiet (suspicion) by deception', 'to delude into 
a sense of security').  [_And gan the childe to kisse And lulled it and 
after gan it blisse._, Chaucer, 1386; _To drinke wine upon an emptie 
stomacke fasting ... dulleth the vigor and quicknesse of the spirit: fitter 
indeed to bring and lull men asleepe in the bed of securitie_, Holland, 
1601].  This is contained in "lullabye" and has Danish and Swedish cognates: 
_lulle_, _lulla_.  Interestingly, this is related to Dutch _lollen_ in the 
sense of 'to mutter' (cf. English "lollard" 'mumbler', 'mutterer').

The connection?  Apparently the "lolling" of the slack tongue.

Now, German has the verb _lullen_ too!  And, yes, it's related to English 
"to lull" in the sense of 'to make sleep/quite'.  And ... Hold on to your 
hats! ... in the childish repertoires of some dialects it also is the 
equivalent of 'to make pee-pee'!  There is also a Southern German noun 
_Luller_ for 'pacifier' ("binky").  I used to think it was a "lalled" child 
version of _Schnuller_.  However ... and hold on to your hats again, but 
then let's not go there ... you know ... German _lullen_ can also mean 'to 
suck', and there appears to be a connection between that and the "lollipop" 
Luc mentioned in this connection.

Thanks for helping me to make the connections, Luc!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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