LL-L "History" 2005.10.09 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

   L O W L A N D S - L * 09 October 2005 * Volume 01
=======================================================================

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.10.08 (04) [E]

Hi, Ingmar,

> Then the Wursten county should be considered as a part of East Frisia
> rather than North Frisia, or even seperately?
It's separately, though closer to East- than to North-Frisia. I even don't
know wether it is still specially represented in the 'Friesenrat' today.
They're pretty aware to be Frisians partly, but of course during the long
times they got mixed up with the sorrounding (Saxon) folks. Their LS is much
closer to the Bremen-variety than to any EFLS-one.

> The first mentioning of
> Frisians in the Land of Wursten is 1071 by Von Lehe, I read in the link
> Reinhard sent two days ago about the history of the Germanic people(s) in
> Northern Germany.
I've read this interesting book from v. Lehe (he had been a judge),
investigated in our times and edited in A.D. 1978. I think he writes about
1071 as the first documentary mentioning of a special village. I slightly
remember (just a penny worth) it was any contract with the city of Hamburg
resp. the Duke of Lauenburg; they always had special relations to Wursten
because of the safety regarding ships coming up the Elbe river. The same was
with the city of Bremen and the Weser river.
(BTW: the competition between these big Hanse-cities the 'Wurtfriesen'
always used for their own advantage and  that gave them a special rank
throughout the centuries.)

Modern archaeological researches prove Frisian tracks (e.g. in graves) for
the 8. century there.

> The first mentioning of Frisians in East Frisia was not
> so much earlier.
But they must have been in the region much earlier, because historicans
guess the first dikes already built there in the 11. century. It's not
proved, but in our region, too, we date the first probable community-dikes
into the same times.
But certainly there must have been settlements long before, and I don't
believe that the Saxons would have left a region they had cultivated because
of any Frisian pressure.

That could have happened much later, in the dark times of the chaos amongst
the East-Frisian clans and chieftains. They then were famous for their
quarrels amongst each other and were feared as pirates by the Hanse. I read
about any axis Groningen-Bremen-Hamburg specially founded against these
robberish people.

Sorry for my endurance in this topic- but we're talking about a region
nearly in front of my house-door.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.10.08 (04) [E]

  From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
  Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.10.08 (02) [E]


  Then the Wursten county should be considered as a part of East Frisia
  rather than North Frisia, or even seperately? The first mentioning of
  Frisians in the Land of Wursten is 1071 by Von Lehe, I read in the link
  Reinhard sent two days ago about the history of the Germanic people(s) in
  Northern Germany. The first mentioning of Frisians in East Frisia was not
  so much earlier.


I have always considered it to be East Frisian. As you probably know, the 
Wursten Frisian
dialect survived to about 1700 at least (and a wurd list was written down by 
some viccar)
 and was distinctly Old East Frisian in character, and some features 
correspond nicely to
well-known features in Old East Frisian legal texts from the Middle Ages.
De wurd for 10 was in these glosses "tyahn", corresponding nicely to modern
Saterlandic Frisian "tjoon" (which has oo < aa regularly). Modern North 
Frisian dialects have forms
that seem to be based on the form with falling, not rising diphthong (tian 
in Old Frisian probably
had 2 pronounciations, looking at modern dialects, a rising and a falling 
one).
But as I recall, there were many typically East Frisian forms. Shame it died 
out...
Regards,


Henno Brandsma 

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================