LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.22 (01) [E/LS]

Sat Oct 22 19:21:50 UTC 2005

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 22 October 2005 * Volume 01
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.20 (05) [E]

Leyve Reinhard,

du schreyvst:

> In some dialects of Low Saxon in Germany it is possible to mark objects
> (direct and indirect) with /-n/, but only if these are persons....
> Ik help Moudern in de koek.
> <Ik help Modern in de Köök.>
> ("I help Mother [Mouder] in the kitchen.")

Wi deyn woll seggen:
'Ik help Moder_s_ in de Köök.' Un' dat ne alleyn inne 'Object-Form'- geyht 
woll opletzt ouk in dennen Ablativ, ;-).
Man- my dücht, dat _s_ is von'nen Oosten hier her komen, un dat _n_ is meyhr 
vonne Süüd her, ut Westfool'n.

Allerbest' Greutens

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.21 (04) [E]

Heather wrote:
>>
>Persons, especially proper names but also words that denote family names
>like Oma, Opa, Ma, Pa etc get the old genitive suffix when in dative.<
>
>Sorry but am I being very thick here ?  I cannot see any dative use in the
>examples given ( bar one)

I don't know about your thickness ;-) but you misunderstood the examples.
First I give the name as it's normally used: Oma, Tôn, Fikkie.
Then the ones with the suffixes -e and -s.
And third the "straightforward" genitive form, with -s, because now we see
the difference between the genitive <Tôns> and the "genidative" or what
ever you want to call it <af Tônne>.

>>Oma = grandmother
>>ik gao naor Omas = I'm going to (visit) grandmother
>>hedde Omas bril ok gezien? = have you seen granny's glasses?
>>
>>Tôn = Anthony
>>ik gif dä an Tônne = I'll give it to Anthony
>>dì is Tôns hös = this is Anthony's house
>>
>>Fikkie = general dog's name
>>dä butje is af Fikkies = that bone is Fikkie's
>>dä's Fikkies butje = that's Fikkie's bone
>>
>>In Standard Dutch the above sentences would be:
>>
>>ik ga naar Oma
>>heb je Oma's brik ook gezien?
>>ik geef het aan Toon
>>dit is Toons huis
>>dat botje is van Fikkie
>>dat is Fikkies botje
>
>Oma = grandmother
>ik gao naor Omas = I'm going to (visit) grandmother
>
>I agree with Ron here. This is an abbreviation of -  I am going to
Granny's

I hardly think Brabant dialects use abbreviations of English...

>hedde Omas bril ok gezien? = have you seen granny's glasses?
>Straight forward genitive

Yep, see above

>Tôn = Anthony
>ik gif dä an Tônne = I'll give it to Anthony
>Agreed this is a dative but this is an old dative ending anyway like zu
>Hause so no connection with genitive

You gave a German example, I don't know about that (German and Dutch are
different languages) but in older Dutch the genitive was not only in
-s, but also in -e (-en). In Modern Dutch we usually have constructions
with <van> or the <-s> suffix.

Ingmar

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Jonny (baven):

> Man- my dücht, dat _s_ is von'nen Oosten hier her komen, un dat _n_
> is meyhr vonne Süüd her, ut Westfool'n.

Tjer ... mag wul syn.  Man düssen slag _-s_ bün ik bit her tou baven an de 
Ilv' nich in de moyt kamen.  Gedygen ...  Nu, ja.  In dat rebeyd vindt sik 
dat inwarken vun 'n groten barg dialekten, vun wegen al dat inwannern na 
Hamborg un üm rüm.

Ingmar,

> I hardly think Brabant dialects use abbreviations of English...

But, Ingmar, why look at it necessarily as an *English* abbreviation? 
Alternatively, you could consider the possibility that it is a shared 
feature developed independently (i.e.,  without contact).  There are many 
such features within the group of Western Germanic.  It doesn't seem all 
that exotic to me to abbreviate "...'s place" to "...'s".  I can well 
imagine this happening independently in two sup-groups of the same group. 
You find something very similar in surnames, also in English and Brabantish 
(and other varieties), such as Peters(e) (Petre) = Peters, Willems(e) = 
Williams, etc., a system that refers to the place or family (people) of the 
named ("Peter's folk/clan/place," "William's folk/clan/place," etc.).  This 
seems to involve a similar type of abbreviation.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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